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Markthebuilder said:
I thought we had already established that the bees allow sufficient tolerance so we can round up or down.
sugar by convention comes 1st in the ratiio

and that sugar and water both have the same weight by volume ie 1lt of sugar weighs 1kg so you can use any size container to measure out your ingredients

unless I have it wrong again
Click to expand...

Actually 1 litre chrystal sugar is 0,85 kg.
It means nothing, because bees dry up the extra water away.

Look kicthen measures

1 litre sugar + 1 litre water = 46% sugar.

2 litre sugar + 1 litre water = 63% sugar. Very good syrup to bees.
 
Last edited:
People can make a quarrel in an empty room.

It is extremely simple.....and there is a cartload of nonsense goes around in beekeeping circles about syrups and source plants.

Traditionally CANE was said to be best..then the waters got muddied at least in part by the invert sellers who lied with impunity about reasons to buy their product (or rather...not to buy others). Yes..very good products and great for bees and fine if they stuck to that but they didn't..wanted to throw mud at cane sugar as theirs is beet derived.

FACT...both are perfectly good bee feeding syrups...as is invert.

Feeding thick syrup...at or approaching.. 2:1 is the least work for the bees (less energy expended driving off surplus water). It is best done in water that is nice and warm and then takes very little time. At 2:1 if the bees are slow to take it it can start to crystallise out in the feeder...so we just up the water by 5% or so (its approximate..absolute accuracy is pedantic and unneccessary). Bees take this and store it almost as fast as invert..and now we are back on this for several seasons and tried them side by side we do not see invert as having an advantage as big a s required to cover the cost difference.

Then we come to economics. We mix this in a tank that in theory takes 2.4t sugar and 1.2t of water...but we now use it less full for convenience so 2t sugar to 1.05 to 1.1 t of water.

Except when we get special purchases of batches of sugar that are wanted to get off the market (recently got a cancelled export order that had sat in Immingham for 3 years at a decent price) we pay an annual cotract rate for bulk bagged white sugar. The last lot cost us £420 per tonne...and two tonnes makes three tones of syrup..so cost...minus mixing cost...est £20 per batch in heating and labour...that £280 per tonne of heavy syrup ready to feed. Dont need to go any further...there are no invert products out there even close to that figure......invert feeding at least doubles, and fondant feeding triples, the costs....

Thats as simple a bottom line as you can get.

Also..the mantra never to feed brown or raw sugars is lore...been repeated for years and years yet its nonsense. Just need to use common sense.

Raw sugar..and I mean traded raw sugar..not the remanufactured raw sugar on shop shelves which has had molasses etc back added....is actually just off white....carried it on ships from Brazil many years ago..with not a lot left in it. It perfectly fine bee feed if you can get hold of it.

Brown sugar can be used without problems in spring and summer...would be a little nervouse of using it too much in autumn but have done trials with no adverse effects.

Have also bought large job lots of out of code Demerara sugar....no issues whatsoever...wintered perfectly on it.

Also got a job lot of Lyles golden syrup in IBC's. Most of it we reworked away into our normal syrup replacing some of the sugar. No issues.

Trialled some by just dumping 20kg or so o0f the stuff straight into the hive top feeders unthinned. They took it fine and wintered great on it.

*So...conclusions...almost all feeding regimes are just fine if common sense is used. Ignore myths and out of date advice. If you get offered cheap sugar of any type ..white, brown, golden, lumps, caster, icing) take it..and use sensibly.

Unless you have no interest in costs (some dont..thats their legtimate choice) then sugar and water is the most cost effective.*

Appreciate scales vary but basic principles apply.
Our mixing tank was specially made for us in Accrington. It cost £5.5k plus VAT...so 6.6K if you cant reclaim.
The first truckload of 27t sugar cost us 8.9K at market rate on the day (33p/Kg) so got 42t approx of thick syrup for that money so about £210/t On the same day I ordered the project I was quoted £710 delivered for invert..adjusting the dry weight that equates to £630 at the same concentration as the home made. Same tonnage thus..adjusted for dry weight....home made cost £8.9k....with about 260 in mixing costs...so lets just say a round 9k. Same amount of sugar delivered as invert £26.460....so £17.5k more expensive...so even if amortising the tank away completely on the first load still saved 12K. That stopped the argument stone dead for me.

Oddly......no doubt due to fierce competition....invert today at a time of high sugar prices is cheaper than it was then, when sugar prices were low. Someone made a real killing out of us beeks.

Sorry for the long post on a starkly simple (albeit myth ridden) topic.
 
Finman said:
Actually 1 litre chrystal sugar is 0,85 kg.
Click to expand...

I’m tempted to buy some chrystal “caster” sugar in the hope that I could challenge that just for devilment but my scales aren’t good enough to give a reliable result👌Nor would it serve any meaningful purpose. But thank you for the correction.
 
Into the lions den said:
People can make a quarrel in an empty room.

It is extremely simple.....and there is a cartload of nonsense goes around in beekeeping circles about syrups and source plants.

Traditionally CANE was said to be best..then the waters got muddied at least in part by the invert sellers who lied with impunity about reasons to buy their product (or rather...not to buy others). Yes..very good products and great for bees and fine if they stuck to that but they didn't..wanted to throw mud at cane sugar as theirs is beet derived.

FACT...both are perfectly good bee feeding syrups...as is invert.

Feeding thick syrup...at or approaching.. 2:1 is the least work for the bees (less energy expended driving off surplus water). It is best done in water that is nice and warm and then takes very little time. At 2:1 if the bees are slow to take it it can start to crystallise out in the feeder...so we just up the water by 5% or so (its approximate..absolute accuracy is pedantic and unneccessary). Bees take this and store it almost as fast as invert..and now we are back on this for several seasons and tried them side by side we do not see invert as having an advantage as big a s required to cover the cost difference.

Then we come to economics. We mix this in a tank that in theory takes 2.4t sugar and 1.2t of water...but we now use it less full for convenience so 2t sugar to 1.05 to 1.1 t of water.

Except when we get special purchases of batches of sugar that are wanted to get off the market (recently got a cancelled export order that had sat in Immingham for 3 years at a decent price) we pay an annual cotract rate for bulk bagged white sugar. The last lot cost us £420 per tonne...and two tonnes makes three tones of syrup..so cost...minus mixing cost...est £20 per batch in heating and labour...that £280 per tonne of heavy syrup ready to feed. Dont need to go any further...there are no invert products out there even close to that figure......invert feeding at least doubles, and fondant feeding triples, the costs....

Thats as simple a bottom line as you can get.

Also..the mantra never to feed brown or raw sugars is lore...been repeated for years and years yet its nonsense. Just need to use common sense.

Raw sugar..and I mean traded raw sugar..not the remanufactured raw sugar on shop shelves which has had molasses etc back added....is actually just off white....carried it on ships from Brazil many years ago..with not a lot left in it. It perfectly fine bee feed if you can get hold of it.

Brown sugar can be used without problems in spring and summer...would be a little nervouse of using it too much in autumn but have done trials with no adverse effects.

Have also bought large job lots of out of code Demerara sugar....no issues whatsoever...wintered perfectly on it.

Also got a job lot of Lyles golden syrup in IBC's. Most of it we reworked away into our normal syrup replacing some of the sugar. No issues.

Trialled some by just dumping 20kg or so o0f the stuff straight into the hive top feeders unthinned. They took it fine and wintered great on it.

*So...conclusions...almost all feeding regimes are just fine if common sense is used. Ignore myths and out of date advice. If you get offered cheap sugar of any type ..white, brown, golden, lumps, caster, icing) take it..and use sensibly.

Unless you have no interest in costs (some dont..thats their legtimate choice) then sugar and water is the most cost effective.*

Appreciate scales vary but basic principles apply.
Our mixing tank was specially made for us in Accrington. It cost £5.5k plus VAT...so 6.6K if you cant reclaim.
The first truckload of 27t sugar cost us 8.9K at market rate on the day (33p/Kg) so got 42t approx of thick syrup for that money so about £210/t On the same day I ordered the project I was quoted £710 delivered for invert..adjusting the dry weight that equates to £630 at the same concentration as the home made. Same tonnage thus..adjusted for dry weight....home made cost £8.9k....with about 260 in mixing costs...so lets just say a round 9k. Same amount of sugar delivered as invert £26.460....so £17.5k more expensive...so even if amortising the tank away completely on the first load still saved 12K. That stopped the argument stone dead for me.

Oddly......no doubt due to fierce competition....invert today at a time of high sugar prices is cheaper than it was then, when sugar prices were low. Someone made a real killing out of us beeks.

Sorry for the long post on a starkly simple (albeit myth ridden) topic.
Click to expand...
Thanks for injecting some sense into the annual merry go round about mixing syrup Murray. Your post should be permanently right at the top of faq posts. - Dani might be able to arrange this?
 
I just mix 40Litres to 60 kg of sugar in a barrel works for me
 
Gilberdyke John said:
Thanks for injecting some sense into the annual merry go round about mixing syrup Murray. Your post should be permanently right at the top of faq posts. - Dani might be able to arrange this?
Click to expand...
Beet sugar was at one time judged to be harmful to bees !
The process has since been refined and the chemicals used in the extraction have been adjusted!
Also s/s used an additive to deter ants from the finished product! I haven’t seen this caution on their bags for a year or two !
 
victor meldrew said:
Beet sugar was at one time judged to be harmful to bees !
Click to expand...
But that was shown to be a smear campaign by Tate & Lyle in the 1940's, trying to pave the way for selling their sugar once imports resumed and sugar came off ration - something that Manley laid to rest in his books
 
Murox said:
and we are still trying to recognize what the other person doesn't understand!!!!!!!:ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...

One evening possibly after 1 or 2 glasses of wine I was researching sugar syrup… looking at whether I should try stimulate brood for winter bees

I believe I came across a post which stated 2x water to 1 sugar and in my befuddled and confused state thought 0 SH.one.T
I’ve been getting it wrong… further research on the forum and I noted people stating volumes of water lt to pounds of sugar etc then just when any given thread had it cleared up someone comes in saying what they do which doesn’t in fact bear any resemblance to conventional wisdom. . I also concluded that the subject comes up 3 times a year so it was about time someone asked the question.1630248689286.pnglastly in the thread I resurrected I didn’t believe the op had been given an accurate answer . So I stuck my two penny in along with an inaccurate guess for good measure.
I did try to ask a different question elsewhere about makeing sticky boards with Vaseline but that isn’t allowed so here we are 5 days later . All good crack really.
 
Markthebuilder said:
I was researching sugar syrup… looking at whether I should try stimulate brood for winter bees

I believe I came across a post which stated 2x water to 1 sugar and in my befuddled and confused state thought 0 SH.one
Click to expand...

Germany has researched the possibility to rear more winter bees with feeding colonies in late summer.

The answer was, that winter cluster will not grow bigger, because the larva feeder bees die before winter.

If you speed up brooding with sugar syrup, most of all brood needs good quality pollen. .. from where you get pollen in autumn? The result is that the fatbody tissue of bees is incomplete, and bees do not stand winter. That has been researched in Germany 70 years ago.

Australians made a research to find out, is it possible to keep colonies fully strong over a short winter by feeding to hives pollen patty.

As a result all patty fed colonies got a bad nosema, and they were weaker than naturally wintered colonies.

Beeks believe that there are buttons in bees, and when you push a proper button, all wishes will become true!
 
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