Swarms from unmanaged hive - worth it?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I guess 4 years is possible though. There is another beekeeper nearby so quite likely reoccupied by his swarms.

I've had the opportunity to observe several colonies of these mythical 'free living' bees equally in hollow trees or old stone walls/rock crevices (people conveniently forget that for a large part of Europe's 'pre-history' it was virtually treeless plains and tundra) they have seldom lasted more than three seasons, a few four and one that died in its fifth spring (that long hard cold spring of 2012 IIRC)

 

[Newbeeneil]

To be honest as Sutty says it’s rather anti social to let swarms pour out of an abandoned hive into a neighbour’s chimney. I think you setting up local bait hives would be seen as a very positive thing.

 

[Do224]

Stan and I took down the box on one of our trees today as it was starting to fall apart. It was put up in 2017 and we have had four colonies in it. The last swarm arrived last summer which, of course, was an absolute disaster for the bees. We found a small dead cluster of around fifty bees.


View attachment 39570

Really interesting to see this, thanks. Will you repair and put it back up?

 

[Sutty]

To be honest as Sutty says it’s rather anti social to let swarms pour out of an abandoned hive into a neighbour’s chimney. I think you setting up local bait hives would be seen as a very positive thing.

It would be better to remove the problem hive if permission could be got.
If I was a non-beek neighbour in these circumstances I'd have hopped over the fence and pushed the hive over in winter!

 

[pargyle]

From her description every year and several swarms. Could still be dying off and reoccupied, swarming the same year is quite possible, but for 4yrs made me curious.
Curious but not optimistic!
I gave her my number so I may get a call this season.
Really antisocial of the beek who left them behind (apparently took a bunch of others).

You never know do you .. as a TF beekeeper for 12 years I've not lost many colonies over the years and those I've lost have largely had explanations (Starvation, late season queen failure etc.). I'm a firm believer that local conditions are a significant factor in levels of varroa infestation - some colonies seem to be able to cope with and manage some levels of mites. Whilst there is always the possibility that these neglected hives have died out and been repopulated by fresh swarms, there is an equal possibility that they have survived and are living with whatever varroa load is produced by their local environment. Who knows ? No way of proving either ...

I certainly don't subscribe to the oft quoted proposition that every colony in the UK that is untreated for varroa will die as result of varroa infestation within 1,2,3 or whatever years...

 

[Newbeeneil]

It would be better to remove the problem hive if permission could be got.
If I was a non-beek neighbour in these circumstances I'd have hopped over the fence and pushed the hive over in winter!

I was rung up last year by a roofer working on a church roof. I expected to be asked to remove bees from under the tiles but he said his guys were getting stung by bees coming from an abandoned hive deep in the undergrowth below the spire.
They found the owner who said he didn’t want it so I was asked to take it away. I removed the whole thing including two supers solid with honey at 6am one morning and got paid £150 for my troubles!!!
The hives only looked about 10 years old so it was quite a nice deal and after a season in my isolation apiary they seem well behaved.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Really interesting to see this, thanks. Will you repair and put it back up?

I’m working on it

 

[JamezF]

I certainly don't subscribe to the oft quoted proposition that every colony in the UK that is untreated for varroa will die as result of varroa infestation within 1,2,3 or whatever years...

I don't recall that I've seen people making that specific claim, but there is relatively recent (published in 2022) research done in Germany suggesting that the annual survival rate for feral colonies is about 10.6%. That research was done in old-growth German forests, so may not apply in the back gardens of suburban Derbyshire, but in the absence of any other information that might affect survival suggests that it may well be reasonable to assume that such a colony would have only a 10.6% chance of survival for a year, a 1.1% chance of survival for two years, 0.12% (about 1 in 840) after three and 0.013% (almost 1 in 8000) after four. The reason for dying out isn't specified in the paper as far as I'm aware, but I believe there's a subsequent study that provides more detail.

Without more specific surveys or further information regarding factors that may influence survival therefore, a best first guess is that the colony present at a nesting site this year is probably not the same one that was present last year and highly unlikely to be the same one as was present two years ago. There isn't any reason in the first paper as far as I'm aware to suggest that the cause will be that they weren't treated for varroa or that it's because of some reason associated with varroa.

(There are more specific surveys done, for example, in the Arnot Forest where the honey bee population is believed to be self-sustaining.)

James

 

[JamezF]

Whilst there is always the possibility that these neglected hives have died out and been repopulated by fresh swarms, there is an equal possibility that they have survived and are living with whatever varroa load is produced by their local environment. Who knows ? No way of proving either ...

Perhaps there is. Genetic assays of colonies have been carried out for other honey bee research, so where a colony is being monitored over a period of time it may well be possible to say within certain confidence bounds that the colony is or is not the same one as was present twelve months previously.

James

 

[Mint Bee]

what ever happened to the analysis that was supposed to be published on the self sustaining wild Blenheim Forest bees?

 

[boywonder]

I was posting a queen today and the lady behind the counter said that there is a beehive in the garden next to her that has been unmanaged for about 4 years and swarms into her garden every year several times. The house is unoccupied.
Do you think one of these swarms would be worth collecting on the basis that the bees may have some varroa resistance?
I'm aware the colony may have died and been reoccupied, but several swarms a year makes this seems less likely.
I don't need extra bees currently but maybe worth a thought?

I would do it. A couple of years ago, an old-boy (ex beekeeper) called on me to help sort out a mess in his garden and woodland clearing. His kit (unmanaged and shambolically strewn) was occupied by a couple of thriving "free-living" colonies. One (dilapidated stack) was bang in the middle of his garden, and I was curious to understand whether (and when) he had last managed these bees. "I've not touched them in the last ten years," was the reply.

I assume (as is is likely) this was not an ever-enduring colony, but a location which has been consistently repopulated with local swarms.

Either way, the way I look at it:
1) Hardy bees - tick
2) Likely varroa-tolerant bees (let's not go the whole-hog and say hygienic) - tick
3) Locally adapted (forage and climate) - tick

... So I gave them a try, and, after rehiving and quarantining, moved them to my out-apiary.

These bees and their progeny have been absolutely rock-solid, in every way - unlike some of their near neighbours. In fact, I am beyond delighted to have introduced these and their genetics into my apiary.

Pot luck? Maybe .... but I tend to think if you have THRIVING colonies living wild (or quasi-ferally) locally, these are bees you need to be appreciating/assimilating ??

 

[madasafish]

what ever happened to the analysis that was supposed to be published on the self sustaining wild Blenheim Forest bees?

cough

 

[rampino]

cough

Well, they say a good lie goes round the world before the truth gets out of bed!
Also known in polite circles as spin.

 

[Amari]

I would do it. A couple of years ago, an old-boy (ex beekeeper) called on me to help sort out a mess in his garden and woodland clearing.

I love using the phrase ‘old boy’ whenever I’m describing anyone eligible. I’ve no idea if I (83) ever fit the bill in others’ eyes……

 

[JamezF]

I love using the phrase ‘old boy’ whenever I’m describing anyone eligible. I’ve no idea if I (83) ever fit the bill in others’ eyes……

The son of a friend refers to him as "old man" (and not just behind his back). Cheeky git! He's 55 at the most.

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The son of a friend refers to him as "old man" (and not just behind his back). Cheeky git! He's 55 at the most.

wear it like a badge - many I know never even made it to that.

 

[Erichalfbee]

wear it like a badge - many I know never even made it to that.

Having dodged the bullet at 67 and being alive and well 5 years later

 

[bingevader]

Regret to pour water on the idea, but this cannot be confirmed nor benefit gained; just as likely to be a beginner's imported Buckfast.

When he gets the opportunity to take a look, he can see if the queen is marked.