Swarm Prevention

[Finman]

Why can't we just stick a queen excluder below the brood box if swarming is on the horizon ..

Guys have tried that but with bad results.
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Weekly inspection and AS is only practical way to handle swarming.

Of course for do nothing guys "Let them go" is realistic alternative. Many use it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes ... but by then they usually have a dozen new queen cells hidden away ... if you see that festooning it's time to have a really good look through the hive - ignore that at your peril .. even when you inspected just a few days before .. amazing how quickly they can draw out queen cells when they are in the mood.

I know
Folk who routinely try swarm prevention by breaking down QCs will quickly find that the bees can draw a queen cell at day three larva, capped two days later and be off two days after they were in to break them down (earlier if they go before they are capped......which is not that unusual.

 

[Millet]

When i was a child i used to catch a blue bottle fly and tie a piece of cotton around it's head thorax area.. it was great flying this type of kite and when we got bored we would give a quick tug which meant end off..

Anyway could we not tie a queen down in some way.. folk used to also do it with wood pigeon squab's in the nest till they fattened up..

 

[pargyle]

According to a few good sources bees are making swarm plans two weeks before you see a queen cell.

Yes ... I think that's very true but it's really difficult, if not impossible, for a new beekeeper, to spot the signs that early on - certainly not from outside the hive.

One of the earliest signs of bees getting ready to swarm is when they start to fill cells in the brood box (that have previously been brood cells) with nectar/honey. I assume that they are programmed to build the stores up for the bees that will remain behind to compensate for the foragers that go with the swarm. It also means the queen has less room to lay and the brood nest gets smaller - once the swarm has left there are fewer bees to nurse the brood so this is one way they ensure there is the size of brood nest they can cope with.

Even then, it's not easy to spot this happening and a few days is a long time in the swarm season. If you see it happening you can, sometimes, ease the situation by inserting a couple of empty frames between the brood frames that are being filled with nectar ... Enlarging the brood nest when they are trying to shrink it can ward off swarming ... but not always and not usually forever.

 

[Hivemaker.]

... but not always and not usually forever.

Forever is a long time, so not really surprised.

 

[pargyle]

Forever is a long time, so not really surprised.

You know what I mean .....

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes ... I think that's very true but it's really difficult, if not impossible, for a new beekeeper, to spot the signs that early on - certainly not from outside the hive.

One of the earliest signs of bees getting ready to swarm is when they start to fill cells in the brood box (that have previously been brood cells) with nectar/honey. I assume that they are programmed to build the stores up for the bees that will remain behind to compensate for the foragers that go with the swarm. It also means the queen has less room to lay and the brood nest gets smaller - once the swarm has left there are fewer bees to nurse the brood so this is one way they ensure there is the size of brood nest they can cope with.

Even then, it's not easy to spot this happening and a few days is a long time in the swarm season. If you see it happening you can, sometimes, ease the situation by inserting a couple of empty frames between the brood frames that are being filled with nectar ... Enlarging the brood nest when they are trying to shrink it can ward off swarming ... but not always and not usually forever.

what you are describing is not swarm preparations but a swarm trigger caused by the bees fast running out of space due to nectar flows and becoming honey blocked.

This pushing bees to swarming is very common in new inexperienced beekeepers as their inexperience does not tell them when to add extra space.

 

[REDWOOD]

Quite common for over wintered nucs to swarm if you don't keep an eye on them in the spring because of lack of space. The last thing you want is a nuc that has started thinking about swarming and when hived it swarms.

 

[Finman]

Quite common for over wintered nucs to swarm if you don't keep an eye on them in the spring because of lack of space. The last thing you want is a nuc that has started thinking about swarming and when hived it swarms.

Every hive swarms if hive has not enough space.

Same with honey flow. Nectar needs space to rippen. Otherwise bees store nectar in brood combs.

But giving space does not eliminate swarming, when colony had normal swarming instincts. There are lots of misunderstanding in this issue.

.

 

[For want of a better word]

There are lots of misunderstanding in this issue.

Many propogated in books about keeping bees......

I saw a demonstration of a swarm preventer utilising an iron pad glued to the queen's back, and a strong magnetic rod placed along the hive entrance.

When the queen attempted to leave with a swarm the idea was to have her stuck to the bar.... disaster, colony swarmed and magpie probably ate captured queen!

Yeghes da

 

[Fatbee]

From my few seasons experience I have found the swarming nature varies from year to year and it's not so much the technique you use, it's knowing when and what scenario to use them in. And that is dependent on the season and state of the colony which only can be learned from observing and the mistakes made when things haven't worked.

 

[Erichalfbee]

One of the earliest signs of bees getting ready to swarm is when they start to fill cells in the brood box (that have previously been brood cells) with nectar/honey.

Yes backfilling of the brood nest is one thing to look for.
You'll also see that with overzealous feeding of newly purchased nucs.....and off they go

 

[Hivemaker.]

One of the earliest signs of bees getting ready to swarm is when they start to fill cells in the brood box (that have previously been brood cells) with nectar/honey.

Not so here, they start to back fill the brood nest every year when on the heather during the flow, often chocker block full, and are not in any way preparing to swarm... during the main swarming period here in June there is what is called the June gap, no nectar coming in, so no nectar to back fill with, but also often at other times during a heavy flow during the normal swarming period the bees will fill every available empty cell in among the brood area with nectar, this is soon moved out, if this is seen during an inspection it is not an indication of imminent swarming.

 

[Finman]

There are lots of misunderstanding in this issue.

Many propogated in books about keeping bees......

I saw a demonstration of a swarm preventer utilising an iron pad glued to the queen's back, and a strong magnetic rod placed along the hive entrance.

When the queen attempted to leave with a swarm the idea was to have her stuck to the bar.... disaster, colony swarmed and magpie probably ate captured queen!

Yeghes da

I am sure that it is a good joke, and some *.* takes that seriously.

One of the best jokes is Bonsai Cat.

 

[For want of a better word]

I am sure that it is a good joke, and some *.* takes that seriously.

One of the best jokes is Bonsai Cat.

I do not have any modicum of a sense of humor.. this device was marketed by a German company a few years ago!... and reported on on this very forum.
You need to trim that long white beard or you will trip over it on the way down from your ivory tower.. methinks!!

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

I am sure that it is a good joke, and some *.* takes that seriously.

One of the best jokes is Bonsai Cat.

You do have a STRANGE sense of humour...... don't you have anything like our RSPCA in Finskiland?

Nos da

 

[pargyle]

Not so here, they start to back fill the brood nest every year when on the heather during the flow, often chocker block full, and are not in any way preparing to swarm... during the main swarming period here in June there is what is called the June gap, no nectar coming in, so no nectar to back fill with, but also often at other times during a heavy flow during the normal swarming period the bees will fill every available empty cell in among the brood area with nectar, this is soon moved out, if this is seen during an inspection it is not an indication of imminent swarming.

Yes...it would not be reliable later in the season when there is any heavy flow on but as the heather is usually post swarm season I would hope that they would be past the urge by then. But ... As a general indicator early in the swarm season ... Its one of the signs to watch for. I've come to the conclusion that no matter how much you look for the signs though the little beggars will find a way to defeat you !

 

[Thymallus]

I've come to the conclusion that no matter how much you look for the signs though the little beggars will find a way to defeat you !

I find looking for (and finding) larvae swimming in royal jelly in queen cups is as sure a sign as you are likely to get. Looking for bees flying backwards rarely works.

 

[Finman]

. If a hive has a heavy flow, and it may wake up to swarm, give one or two box foudations. Then they start rethin the case...

Good habit is to extract capped boxes , and absolutely, give empty combs over the brood.

Bigger problem than swarming is that if hive is too full, they slow down foraging and make a cluster on outer wall.

Once I measured with balance incoming honey. It was 3.5 kg/day. There was a cluster on wall. I extracted 45 kg from the hive, and incoming honey jumped to 7kg/day.

.

 

[pargyle]

I find looking for (and finding) larvae swimming in royal jelly in queen cups is as sure a sign as you are likely to get. Looking for bees flying backwards rarely works.

Yes ...but we are talking about the less obvious signs that precede the point when they start building queen cells ... Any village idiot with one eye and half a brain should know they are about to swarm once they start building queen cells ... Do try to keep up !