Stupid Question? Deep vs Jumbo

[Robbo8916]

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking at purchasing a hive. I've got some kit already so have got a customised beginner kit (smoker, hive tool, brush, books etc).

The company's recommendation is to purchase the Jumbo National with 14x12 frames. They also sell a Deep Brood version of the National but this doesn't specify a frame size.

What are most people using? I think the cost difference is only around £25 (more for the jumbo).

Sorry I know its a daft question?

 

[pargyle]

Well I like the 14x12 size as you have a larger brood box and with a lot of the current strains of bees they will fill a National BB very quickly and you will then be running brood and a half or even double brood to accommodate the space they need for brood.

I also like the fact that a well stocked 14x12 going into winter has enough stores to see them through a 'normal' winter.

Downside - it's heavier to lift than a National.

You can always have your cake and eat it as a 14x12 is the same footprint as a National so you could make an eke for a national to make it a 14x12. If you find you don't like it then you can always revert to the national and use the eke on top of it filled with insulation. Lots of options ..

The only advice I would give is that once you have decided on what size you are going to stick with (and it may not be until you've tried a few that the decision is made) then stick with it. There is little that is more frustrating in beekeeping than mismatched bits of equipment - try and stick to the same format.

 

[Hawklord]

The deep national is too small, but you could use 2 of them together, this is called double brood. The 14x12 is near enough the same as using a deep and a super for the brood area. It depends on whether you want to use a single brood box or 2 boxes for the brood area.

 

[Robbo8916]

Well I like the 14x12 size as you have a larger brood box and with a lot of the current strains of bees they will fill a National BB very quickly and you will then be running brood and a half or even double brood to accommodate the space they need for brood.

I also like the fact that a well stocked 14x12 going into winter has enough stores to see them through a 'normal' winter.

Downside - it's heavier to lift than a National.

You can always have your cake and eat it as a 14x12 is the same footprint as a National so you could make an eke for a national to make it a 14x12. If you find you don't like it then you can always revert to the national and use the eke on top of it filled with insulation. Lots of options ..

The only advice I would give is that once you have decided on what size you are going to stick with (and it may not be until you've tried a few that the decision is made) then stick with it. There is little that is more frustrating in beekeeping than mismatched bits of equipment - try and stick to the same format.

Thanks for that.

The guy I've been speaking to seems very helpful and for the price difference I don't think it is a case of trying to up-sell.

I think I'll go for the jumbo to be honest I just wondered what the real big difference was and whether people used the deep instead?

When I was researching buying packaged bees/nucs (ive researched about everything) I did notice that a lot of nucs seemed to be sold on 14x12 frames so I suppose that should have answered my question for me.

I'm going for poly too! These hives are going to be eventually going into the apiary on the orchard project I posted about where there will be a mixture of wooden and poly hives for 'educational purposes'.

For a complete jumbo with frames and foundation and 2 supers plus all the customised kit I've ordered it comes to £250 which I think is pretty reasonable.

He even said he'd sort me a discount on further equipment as it is going into a community project

 

[thenovice]

i went for 14x12 and I like the simplicity but one of the bigger disadvantages I find is that you can not shuffle brood like on brood and a half (cfr Wally Shaw). in spring I think this is a disadvantage.

 

[Nick Sonic]

i also went for 14x12 and am glad I did, the only issue is the nuc I bought came with the smaller brood frames and the bees are building in the resulting gap.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Thanks for that.

The guy I've been speaking to seems very helpful and for the price difference I don't think it is a case of trying to up-sell.

I think I'll go for the jumbo to be honest I just wondered what the real big difference was and whether people used the deep instead?

When I was researching buying packaged bees/nucs (ive researched about everything) I did notice that a lot of nucs seemed to be sold on 14x12 frames so I suppose that should have answered my question for me.

I'm going for poly too! These hives are going to be eventually going into the apiary on the orchard project I posted about where there will be a mixture of wooden and poly hives for 'educational purposes'.

For a complete jumbo with frames and foundation and 2 supers plus all the customised kit I've ordered it comes to £250 which I think is pretty reasonable.

He even said he'd sort me a discount on further equipment as it is going into a community project

the "a deep" is just another name for the standard national box, hence DN1 classification of frames for the starndard national box

Deep National type 1 frame=DN1

the name deep distinguishes it from a shallow box (ie super) hence SN1 for a super frame Shallow National type 1

 

[RogueDrone]

I had a mix of BS deeps and 14*12" but found the latter to big to handle in comfort so have reverted back to BS deep (14"*8 1/2" appx). For those colonies that need it then go double BB as gives more options than B+1/2 as regards manipulations.

And as a thought does the larger BB slow down the bees moving up to the supers?

Colin

 

[Robbo8916]

And as a thought does the larger BB slow down the bees moving up to the supers?

Colin

I have wondered this myself. I wonder if anyone has had experience or maybe a comparison has been observed?

 

[thenovice]

I have wondered this myself. I wonder if anyone has had experience or maybe a comparison has been observed?[/QUOTE

It will certainly take longer before you put a super on and they do store quite some honey in the broodbox. but as the season progresses and the brood nest expands, that honey gets moved/eaten? I start scratching the capped honey downstairs as soon as I have a super on. I can not tell if this helps the moving up.

I don't think the size of the brood box will make any difference to the end of season harvest as with brood and a half you have the same amount of space to store honey in.

 

[REDWOOD]

Disadvantages;
heavy frames when full of honey,
most nucs come on standard frames,
store more honey
need a bit of insulation when you put a nuc into them (big box to keep warm)

Advantages;
less or no winter feeding,
very rarely need to split or add another BB,
Accommodates prolific queens,

I have run both sizes and I like the 14x12 only because it suits my style of beekeeping.

 

[itma]

I use 14x12. A few wood. But mainly Paynes poly. The BHS is more expensive but has better hand-holds. The Swienty from CWJ, etc lacks proper bottom beespaces.

The handholds become important when you try and move the thing when its well-filled.
Realistically, its something that you should anyway ask a friend to help with.
The alternative is to use your spare hive to allow you to transfer a frame at a time - the easier-lifting way of doing an artificial swarm.

If you are buying-in bees, its very unlikely that they would be 'native-type'.
Much more likely that they would be more prolific and need more brood space than a single DN box.
A 14x12 makes a straightforward answer, for the beginner, keeping the number of brood frames reasonable, while providing the same brood space as 'brood and a half'.
Some dislike 14x12 because of the squareness of the frames, preferring a wider, shallower format. The bees have no such objections.

Its actually not particularly difficult to convert, should you ever want to, in either direction between 14x12 and double DN or even DN+SN ('brood and a half') - which though common is a ruddy nuisance.

 

[user 6228]

I had a mix of BS deeps and 14*12" but found the latter to big to handle in comfort so have reverted back to BS deep (14"*8 1/2" appx). For those colonies that need it then go double BB as gives more options than B+1/2 as regards manipulations.

And as a thought does the larger BB slow down the bees moving up to the supers?

Colin

I think bees count from the roof downwards

 

[Finman]

What are most people using? I think the cost difference is only around £25 (more for the jumbo).
?

The most popular in the World is Langstroth

 

[Swarm]

The most popular in the World is Langstroth

But not in the UK and he ain't asking about Langs.

Not a fan of 14x12, horrible frames.

 

[Finman]

But not in the UK and he ain't asking about Langs.

.

Next time he knows to ask. Thanks to me.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I like my 14x12 frames and I have top space in the boxes.
Starting again with all the experience I have garnered I would choose Langstroth though.

 

[Robbo8916]

So I assume it is a personal preference thing then?

I'm pretty fit and can lift and look at a big frame easy enough I imagine.

Langs aren't something I've even considered x

 

[Hawklord]

The best thing to do is find local beeks than run the different set ups and go have a play, that way you could have some idea before buying.

 

[BeeJayBee]

So I assume it is a personal preference thing then?

I'm pretty fit and can lift and look at a big frame easy enough I imagine.

Langs aren't something I've even considered x

Yes, hive choice is personal preference.

It doesn't matter what type it is, as long as you have a brood box big enough for your local bees.

I use jumbo langs with dadant shallows, but plenty of people use standard langs as a 'one size box' for both brood and honey. Some people do the same with any one of the type of nationals available (standard, 14x12, commercial). It means you only need to buy one size of frame.