Someone put me straight..please?

[mbc]

very poetic , but I was hoping for a more scientific answer based on

I'm not trying to be 'superior' (where'd you get that idea from?), I'm asking an open question as to what the differences are in the nutrition from a bee created store compared to a human provided syrup.

Nothing personal wessexmario, my rant wasnt aimed at any one person, just the general idea.

If you want facts, how about the fact that if you feed bees carbohydrate(sugar syrup), their programming to require balance induces them to collect protein(pollen), leaving them a heavy weight of previously harvested honey provides no such inducement. When you consider the question holistically there is much more to consider than "is honey better food for bees than sugar syrup?".
Some beekeepers feed heavily as soon as the supers are off to induce more laying to increase bee populations with a view to late splits, others take out stores frames and introduce foundation into the nest with a view to getting lovely new drawn out combs.
Often these new colonies from late splits or those with new combs are the healthiest the following spring, square that with a simple narrow preconception of honey=good, sugar=bad.

 

[wessexmario]

thanks for that mbc, it's those other factors and sorts of consequences that I was after.

 

[user 6228]

You are right there is a difference, just not the way you think it does.

Humans and bees are very different creatures, and although I think we can get inspiration from the way they live and work, they cannot be compared to us. When you think about what's best for bees, think about bees, not humans.

Anthropomorphism and inverted anthropomorphism...

be aware that while we are very different organisms, we are constrained by the same laws of physics and thus a large number of issues and solutions will be shared, but not all.

So while its fallacy to assume all that holds for humans holds for bees.
it is also a fallacy to assume that everything about bees is different to humans

in short:
Anthropomorphism is not a sufficient condition to disprove an argument.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

The sentiment is genuine, do what you like with your own bees but going around acting superior to beekeepers who actually feed lots of people deserves a good dose of not having enough food for a while IMHO, that reality check would soon sort out the faux "do goody" nonsense.

I know this wasn't for me but I did get a bit over my skis v bee farmers. I was just triggered by that bee importation discussion. I reckon we can do what we like with our bees as long as it is fair to them and to others. Feeding [and replacing honey] / not feeding, by virtue of the fact that it can be debated can have no right answer.

And I can only speak for myself but I personally would not perform mass imports (with hindsight from Italy in particular, but hindsight is not needed because it's a general idea). I can't speak for him but I doubt the bee farmer Michael Palmer would either.

We all do what we can, you know: I take public transport but I fly for holidays. I take plastic bags back to the supermarket many times before they get used for rubbish (how others cannot, I admit, escapes me); I didn't eat cod for 30 years and am still careful. Veal likewise. I TRY to let my bees bee, but we have varroa now and swarms are an issue in my environment. They end up on a mixture of ivy and syrup (more of the former, this year). If ivy were like my lime, it would be all syrup. I can't see a strong difference, and I am not going to fight, and CERTAINLY not going to start, a religious war over it.

 

[wessexmario]

For many reasons I also wouldn't want everyone to keep bees the same way, there's a big Darwinian advantage in different methods being used concurrently.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

For many reasons I also wouldn't want everyone to keep bees the same way, there's a big Darwinian advantage in different methods being used concurrently.

Which is why not-treaters are the heroes and feral colonies so vital.

 

[madasafish]

Which is why not-treaters are the heroes and feral colonies so vital.

Non treaters often fail to tell you they lose all their colonies..If we all non treated, there would be no bees left.

 

[ugcheleuce]

As I understand it, bees stash a load of honey away for the winter period. Bee keepers remove it, and substitute it with water and refined white sugar. Why is anyone surprised that bees struggle when we do this?

Don't forget that the bees don't store the sugar syrup as-is, even if you give them thick sugar syrup. They drink it and process it in their stomachs and then barf it up again, just like they would with nectar.

And during winter, the bees need energy mostly. They don't grow in winter. They need enough nutrients to survice, but not too much, otherwise they suffer from bowel problems.

In nature, not all bees survive the winter. And many things contribute to their deaths. It may well be that having to store poop in their bodies is detrimental to bees, even though they do it naturally. If you can reduce the things that kill bees naturally, you end up with more bees than nature would have allowed under "natural" circumstances, and that's not a bad thing, right?

What is "natural" isn't "best for the bees" but rather "most adequate for bees".

 

[BeeJayBee]

Given the availability of ivy pollen and nectar (along with a few other sources) at the time when some beekeepers supplement their bees' Winter stores with syrup, I would think it extremely rare that any managed colony goes into Winter with stores that are only made up of sugar syrup.

It would be almost impossible to remove every scrap of honey from a hive, it would mean extracting honey arcs from frames containing brood as well as taking off uncapped stores.

Has research shown that the purer the winter food the less chance of nosema becoming a serious problem?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Non treaters often fail to tell you they lose all their colonies..If we all non treated, there would be no bees left.

 

[Dishmop]

most of you are misrepresenting yourselves in this forum. You are Honeyproducers. And not bee keepers as you claim to be.

Please do tell of your theory of producing honey without keeping bees.

 

[Dishmop]

Non treaters often fail to tell you they lose all their colonies..If we all non treated, there would be no bees left.

*****cks

 

[ugcheleuce]

Most of you are misrepresenting yourselves in this forum. You are honey producers. And not bee keepers as you claim to be.

Don't blame us. Blame the English language for being so illogical. The bees produce honey. We take the honey, and... keep the bees. Perhaps a better term would be honey farmers or hive croppers, but that would exclude anyone who does it for a hobby only.

Yes, wool farmers are not called sheep keepers, and diary farmers are not called cow keepers, but honey farmers are called bee keepers, and that is just how the English language works.

 

[madasafish]

*****cks

I don't understand what "woodchucks " means

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

most of you are misrepresenting yourselves in this forum. You are Honeyproducers. And not bee keepers as you claim to be.

Misrepresenting ourselves - pot kettle colour check please! nowhere on your profile does it say you're a ventriloquist, but here you are - talking through your a....ah I hear the doorbell ringing

 

[Ely]

Misrepresenting ourselves - pot kettle colour check please! nowhere on your profile does it say you're a ventriloquist, but here you are - talking through your a....ah I hear the doorbell ringing

 

[Dishmop]

I don't understand what "woodchucks " means

Some breed of chicken I assume..
Need treating for woodworm whether they have woodworm or not,in case they die out to extinction..

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

We actually know from the Swedish island experiments what happens. My guess is the long-term equilibrium would be like rabbits and myxomatosis, which is OK for the species but no good for beeks so we are forced as a body to treat.

 

[rayz_x]

The honey or sugar question is too simplistic. There are issues with feeding honey over winter - dysentery being a significant one. This is detailed on two websites and the blame is put on the ash or pollen husks causing fibre overload...
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/tag/dysentery/
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/feeding4winter.html

A pre-made syrup like Amb***ia is glucose and fructose, not just sucrose, and it doesn't get black mould in the feeder like sugar does. (Is this because it has low water content?) Of course it has no ash or pollen husks either.

Ray

 

[Erichalfbee]

There are issues with feeding honey over winter - dysentery being a significant one.

So, how do bees deal with eating their own honey over winter?