Solid or Mesh Floors

[pargyle]

Long thin straws
It's like out in Tanzania if you sleep with the window open, even if there are bars on them, the wily thief will use a long stick with blutak or similar on the end and reach through and pinch your phone.

Yes ... The ground floor rooms at the Kilimanjaro used to be done so regularly that they had a permanent guard walking round all night ... no mobile phones in those days - they had a long stick with a fork in the end and they used to nick shoes and and briefcases. Nothing much has changed it seems apart from their targets ...

 

[pargyle]

They don't need to get in. They beg food from under the floor and get fed! That's why it's 'silent'.
I don't know how they persuade the nurse bees to feed them. Maybe they have the colony smell from being under the omf? But it's definitely a thing!

Well ... you learn something new every day in beekeeping ...

Just found this in Dave Cushman ...

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/silentrobbing.html

 

[Nige.Coll]

I have both.
I did some comparisons over a couple of years.
In sheltered apiaries there was little difference between the two.
In exposed apiaries the colonies on solid floors came out best, I nadir a super and they had some mold on the super frames but the colonies on solid floors were better than the colonies on mesh floors.
No colonies had top ventilation and all had the entrance block left in on the wider setting.
Some colonies were buried in snow that year. They all survived.
The colonies on solid floors had an average of 2 more frames of brood to the omf colonies in exposed areas.

 

[rolande]

A few years ago those of us that stuck with solid floors were pretty much treated like dinosaurs on this forum. It seems as if there's now been a general softening of attitude! Like so many things in beekeeping I really don't think it makes *that* much difference but maybe in another ten years the mesh floor will become the only sensible way to keep bees again. In the meantime I'll stick with what I've got - they did OK for me the last time that it was really bad to keep bees on solid floors!

 

[Erichalfbee]

They don't need to get in. They beg food from under the floor and get fed! That's why it's 'silent'.
I don't know how they persuade the nurse bees to feed them. Maybe they have the colony smell from being under the omf? But it's definitely a thing!

Have you actually seen it?
By passing the entrance to offload nectar when there is a major flow is quite common but I've always considered silent robbing to be just not being challenged at the entrance.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well ... you learn something new every day in beekeeping ...

Just found this in Dave Cushman ...

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/silentrobbing.html

Nothing about straws though?

 

[North End Bees]

Have you actually seen it?
By passing the entrance to offload nectar when there is a major flow is quite common but I've always considered silent robbing to be just not being challenged at the entrance.

The unchallenged robbers enter the hive as usual but instead of flying off straightaway with a bellyful of honey, they stay and pass it to their mates through the omf.

Before omfs were a thing, bees did the same thing through gaps in the boxes. Wasps also do this.

If you sit and watch the hive in summer you can see full-bellied bees flying away from under the floor at the back of the hive. And they return at the back.

Bees which are just bypassing the entrance approach from the front as usual.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The unchallenged robbers enter the hive as usual but instead of flying off straightaway with a bellyful of honey, they stay and pass it to their mates through the omf.

Before omfs were a thing, bees did the same thing through gaps in the boxes. Wasps also do this.

If you sit and watch the hive in summer you can see full-bellied bees flying away from under the floor at the back of the hive. And they return at the back.

Bees which are just bypassing the entrance approach from the front as usual.

I shall have to look next summer
Thanks

 

[pargyle]

The unchallenged robbers enter the hive as usual but instead of flying off straightaway with a bellyful of honey, they stay and pass it to their mates through the omf.

Before omfs were a thing, bees did the same thing through gaps in the boxes. Wasps also do this.

If you sit and watch the hive in summer you can see full-bellied bees flying away from under the floor at the back of the hive. And they return at the back.

Bees which are just bypassing the entrance approach from the front as usual.

Well ... I'm an avid bee watcher and I've never seen that but I will watch for it next year. Bees are usually fairly economical and I can't see why, having filled their bellies, they would then go to the effort of disgorging it to other bees under the mesh floor when they could just fly out. I know bees cooperate but it seems a bit far fetched to me .... also I can't see the guard bees permitting this sort of behaviour for too long.

I am sure that the occasional silent robber may get away with getting in and getting out.. but organised crime ? .. I remain unconvinced - is there any hard evidence of this behaviour or is it just a theory ?

 

[North End Bees]

I am sure that the occasiona silent robber may get away with getting in and getting out.. but organised crime .. I remain unconvinced - is there any hard evidence of this behaviour or just a theory ?

Even through the main entrance it's more than the 'occasional' silent robber.

Organised crime? I think bees are the masters of that (and everything else organised)!
But I'll have a look for the hard evidence though.

 

[pargyle]

Even through the main entrance it's more than the 'occasional' silent robber.

Organised crime? I think bees are the masters of that (and everything else organised)!
But I'll have a look for the hard evidence though.

Well ... when there are more than a few going in and out through the main entrance I would agree that it is organised crime ... but I wouldn't describe it as silent robbing - not for any length of time - once they tell their mates there's free beer they are onto it like a Covid Rave ...

 

[North End Bees]

Well ... when there are more than a few going in and out through the main entrance I would agree that it is organised crime ... but I wouldn't describe it as silent robbing - not for any length of time - once they tell their mates there's free beer they are onto it like a Covid Rave ...

Yes but the Covid rave style of robbing you're talking about here isn't silent robbing! The difference is the whole point of it.

Normal robbers are challenged at the door. The guard bees aren't patrolling the omf.
Overt robbing can decimate a hive in a very short space of time. Silent robbing is much more insidious.

As mentioned in your link to Roger P above: "Silent robbing" is a term that was used in old beekeeping books and by the older beekeepers, but is very rarely mentioned nowadays. This is probably because beekeepers aren't as observant as they once were, so don't notice it. I think silent robbing happens more than many beekeepers realise.

I know you're an avid bee watcher but it's very easy not to notice something you're not looking out for or expecting to see.

 

[pargyle]

Yes but the Covid rave style of robbing you're talking about here isn't silent robbing! The difference is the whole point of it.

Normal robbers are challenged at the door. The guard bees aren't patrolling the omf.
Overt robbing can decimate a hive in a very short space of time. Silent robbing is much more insidious.

As mentioned in your link to Roger P above: "Silent robbing" is a term that was used in old beekeeping books and by the older beekeepers, but is very rarely mentioned nowadays. This is probably because beekeepers aren't as observant as they once were, so don't notice it. I think silent robbing happens more than many beekeepers realise.

I know you're an avid bee watcher but it's very easy not to notice something you're not looking out for or expecting to see.

Yes, I've seen robbing and I know how fast they descend and the overt signs of it happening are very obvious ... I'm not questioning that 'Silent robbing' does happen - although I'd admit that I've never noticed it ... what I do question is whether silent robbing can be that significant in the scheme of things ...."

"This is useful in August when doing varroa treatments as it's also a peak time for silent robbing under the omf after the flow"

If it was a serious problem I would have thought that it was something that would be noticeable and people would have been issuing warnings about it ...

Is it myth or fact ?

 

[North End Bees]

... what I do question is whether silent robbing can be that significant in the scheme of things ...
If it was a serious problem I would have thought that it was something that would be noticeable and people would have been issuing warnings about it ...

Silent robbing doesn't wipe out a colony in the way that full-on robbing can. But that doesn't mean it has no significance. Disease spread is one significant factor.

I didn't say it's a serious issue, e.g something that's going to decimate your colony (well, unless it transfers EFB/AFB which would be somewhat serious). I said it was a thing which happens, which it is.

But if it's not easily noticeable, and people aren't actually aware of it happening, they're not out issuing warnings.

 

[Erichalfbee]

"This is useful in August when doing varroa treatments as it's also a peak time for silent robbing under the omf after the flow"

If it was a serious problem I would have thought that it was something that would be noticeable and people would have been issuing warnings about it ...

Is it myth or fact ?

Hmmm
Maybe all the colonies are doing it so you don't notice because it all evens itself out?

 

[rolande]

I've always understood silent robbing to primarily be a behaviour carried out by bees which have previously left the robbed colony such as those in an artificial swarm which has been left in the same apiary; old bees return to parent colony and then make further visits to the split to effectively reclaim what's 'theirs'.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've always understood silent robbing to primarily be a behaviour carried out by bees which have previously left the robbed colony such as those in an artificial swarm which has been left in the same apiary; old bees return to parent colony and then make further visits to the split to effectively reclaim what's 'theirs'.

I'm sure it must occur when every bee in the apiary and every frame inside every box stinks of thymol as well

 

[mbc]

I've always understood silent robbing to primarily be a behaviour carried out by bees which have previously left the robbed colony such as those in an artificial swarm which has been left in the same apiary; old bees return to parent colony and then make further visits to the split to effectively reclaim what's 'theirs'.

Me too, this "through the mesh" thing is novel to me, I suppose it's likely to happen considering bees cluster under mesh floors away from the stores and will ask their sisters to feed them, bloody sneaky of unrelated bees to tap into this source though.
I don't have many mesh floors and don't spend enough time observing individual colonies to have noticed this, it sounds feasible though.
Interesting.

 

[mbc]

Me too, this "through the mesh" thing is novel to me, I suppose it's likely to happen considering bees cluster under mesh floors away from the stores and will ask their sisters to feed them, bloody sneaky of unrelated bees to tap into this source though.
I don't have many mesh floors and don't spend enough time observing individual colonies to have noticed this, it sounds feasible though.
Interesting.

All those swarms who end up under mesh floors will do it too, creating in effect a two queen colony.

 

[North End Bees]

Hmmm
Maybe all the colonies are doing it so you don't notice because it all evens itself out?

Well it may even itself out in terms of loss of stores. But in terms of spreading disease, any additional route is one too many.

RP mentions it being talked and written about regularly in the past, but much less nowadays. Hives didn't have OMFs then so the transfer would have been through gaps in the woodwork. These days many people seeing bees (or wasps) at these gaps would just assume the opportune bees were trying to get in, without considering that stores may be being passed out.

Perhaps beekeepers used to watch their bees a lot more in the past in general. Especially all round and not just at the entrance. But there are lots of things that go unnoticed nowadays (not just in beekeeping) that always happened and still do.