Running short

[sherwood]

When assembling my boxes with bottom bee-space, I don't simply let the turned-over edge of the rails sit on the top of the wooden rail. Instead, I loosely clamp the runners in place and then place a new frame at each end as a guide. When I'm happy that the frames are sitting perfectly, they are secured with the nails.

I'm not sure if this could also work with top bee-space and if the edge was turned over too far, it couldn't be adjusted this way.

Top bee space is easy all you require is a thin metal strip on the ledge itself you already have the beespace required by not putting the rail in. In fact you can leave the strip out entirely and just run a smear of petrolium jelly along the ledge itself or on the underside of frames lug.

 

[Hiveanidea]

A smear on top of the runners ... perhaps, although - even with the most prolific propolis producers providing purposeful propolisation I have never found the need. But the key words in your post are ..." if they can be directed otherwise "... I try to work with my bees, not direct them as far as is practicable.

In your original response you also suggested that bees up to their knees in petroleum jelly was a less than desirable situation and I agree with your concern ... we should avoid giving the idea that quantities of a product alien to the bees should be smeared in any quantity, for the benefit of the beekeeper, on any part of the interior of the hive.

There’s propolis and ....Proper-lis!
l find it’s always a two-way ‘conversation’ l’m having with my bees and sometimes neither of us understand each other.

 

[Garry R]

Instead of flat strips why not just turn a mouse guard upside down and fix it on

 

[Newbeeneil]

Sorry, miss read the post!

 

[elainemary]

Thanks - that’s another ‘angle’ and lubricating runners is all good. It’s just that l need an appropriate regular clearance under the lugs and l like it that bees can move freely under them and not get trapped. So, do you lather the rebate with petroleum jelly too? What do your bees think - up to their knees in it and where do they walk it l wonder?

I simply smear the jelly on the sides of the rebate and the runner. Never seen a problem or any sort of negative consequence for the bees. It’s been used on delicate areas for years! Allows the frames to slide without jarring or wasting time scraping propolis in order to move frames. Also getting it all over gloves or being an issue between boxes. Can inspect more quickly & smoothly which the bees like. Find propolis is a challenge in a particular apiary site, my others are fine so I tend to target this one and apply when I change box c once a year.

 

[ChrisS]

Alternative solution to propolis collecting on the sides of the runners - I liberally apply inexpensive petroleum jelly onto the sides of my boxes. Prevents propolis collecting & preserves Nuc runners well.

A bee inspector once said I shouldn't use petroleum jelly because on the runners because it's not a VMD-approved medicine. I somehow managed to keep a straight face!

 

[North End Bees]

When assembling my boxes with bottom bee-space, I don't simply let the turned-over edge of the rails sit on the top of the wooden rail. Instead, I loosely clamp the runners in place and then place a new frame at each end as a guide. When I'm happy that the frames are sitting perfectly, they are secured with the nails.

When assembling national boxes, it's easier to adjust the height of the rail itself rather than just the runners. If you adjust the runners only, you get variable spaces under the lugs which are either bee-space or propolis-inducing.
Boxes from different manufacturers are machined differently but can be adjusted enough at assembly.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A bee inspector once said I shouldn't use petroleum jelly because on the runners because it's not a VMD-approved medicine. I somehow managed to keep a straight face!

I would have told him to keep the jelly handy for when I advise him where he can shove his VMD

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

When assembling national boxes, it's easier to adjust the height of the rail itself rather than just the runners.

I'm missing something here - the rail is fixed so cannot be adjusted, it's the side panel That sits in the rebated end pieces that the lugs rest against, I fix the runners flat to that then adjust the side panels so that the tops of the lugs are flush with the tops of the side rails

 

[user 20297]

When assembling national boxes, it's easier to adjust the height of the rail itself rather than just the runners. If you adjust the runners only, you get variable spaces under the lugs which are either bee-space or propolis-inducing.
Boxes from different manufacturers are machined differently but can be adjusted enough at assembly.

I agree. In my case, as a complete newbee at the time, and partly because of very poor instructions supplied by Bee Equipment, I had assembled the boxes to their specified dimensions, which turned out to not be quite right for the motley set of runners I received; I stick with Abelo now.

But with an already assembled box, you do still have options.

 

[North End Bees]

I'm missing something here - the rail is fixed so cannot be adjusted, it's the side panel That sits in the rebated end pieces that the lugs rest against, I fix the runners flat to that then adjust the side panels so that the tops of the lugs are flush with the tops of the side rails

Yes, sorry, the inner side panel. Adjusting the height of this is better than adjusting the height of the runners separately.

 

[Hiveanidea]

I'm missing something here - the rail is fixed so cannot be adjusted, it's the side panel That sits in the rebated end pieces that the lugs rest against, I fix the runners flat to that then adjust the side panels so that the tops of the lugs are flush with the tops of the side rails

Clearly there are different ways of constructing a national brood box or super and if you are assembling a ‘flat pack’ then there is room for adjustment l suppose - though l have always made my own boxes. Fundamentally, and returning to my original post, it is the space for bees to walk under the frame lugs that is most crucial in my experience and hence this is the same height above the rebate/side panel that the runner can support the frame. Top or bottom bee space doesn’t really come into it, though this will determine the depth of the rebate/side panel from the top of the box. Finding frame runners that cleared 7mm or so has been my difficulty......up ’til now!
I have again got some on order and l’ll update when they arrive.
Meanwhile, it has been interesting to hear the many, sometimes resourceful, ways beekeepers on this forum have supported their frames. I am a little mystified by those adopting a metal strip lying flat (level) on the rebate (ledge) on which the lugs must also sit flat......on a bed of propolis and flattened bees?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am a little mystified by those adopting a metal strip lying flat (level) on the rebate (ledge) on which the lugs must also sit flat......on a bed of propolis and flattened bees?

I used to run my Swienty boxes without runners straight on the rebate (but no metal strip) Yes they get propolised down but you just have to be careful and no flattened bees. I gave up on that, replaced the runners and glued an eke to the top of the box

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am a little mystified by those adopting a metal strip lying flat (level) on the rebate (ledge) on which the lugs must also sit flat......on a bed of propolis and flattened bees?

who said they did? or have you just assumed

 

[Swarm]

Top bee space is easy all you require is a thin metal strip on the ledge itself you already have the beespace required by not putting the rail in. In fact you can leave the strip out entirely and just run a smear of petrolium jelly along the ledge itself or on the underside of frames lug.

Him.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Him.

thanks - obviously my subconscious spam filter had kicked in to save me burying my face in my palms once again

 

[Hiveanidea]

I get runners and castellations from Maisemore, they are always good quality.

At last l have some frame runners that will ensure a working bee space (nominal 7mm) under the frame lugs. It’s hard to understand why it was so difficult in the first place to obtain these from some established beekeeping suppliers who sent me runners so patently not up to the mark. However, nice and cosy in the shed for the next few days finishing boxes with the rebate confidently dimensioned to hold frames nicely at the proper height.
5 x national BB
2 x 14 x 12 BB
1 x OM floor
3 x crown b
3 x split b - l have some multipurpose design ideas for these so l’ll need to come back on another post to seek advice.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

At last l have some frame runners that will ensure a working bee space (nominal 7mm) under the frame lugs.

why?

 

[pargyle]

why?

So there's enough space for them to breath when they are up to their armpits in petroleum jelly ?

 

[Hiveanidea]

Why

why?

Why!?.........So that frames can be replaced easily and moved forward and back easily with space for bees to walk under and not be accidentally crushed or feel inclined to fill it with pools of propolis because they can’t get through. l guess it’s the Hoffman principle. A very light coat of something slippery just on the runner top will mean that all frames can be simply slid fully back into position as one following full inspection.