Running short

[Hiveanidea]

Hello everyone - time to ask around.
l’m busy making boxes and found l needed more frame runners. I discovered an older galvanised pair and looked online to order more and despite the wild price variation, ordered 10 pairs of galvanised runners. When they came l was surprised to find the difference between old and new. Looking at the shape, size and profile of each, there was no common factor.
In the photo, A is the older version, B a stainless one bought two years ago and C, the latest galvanised one. I’m thinking ‘bee space’ is fairly universal at about 7mm minimum and that it‘s better to have that space under frame lugs, not least for levering them up, but to inhibit pools of propolis building up in the rebate. Incidentally, used the B version and got rivers of propolis under the lugs, albeit from a colony with more of that ‘gooey’ trait than others.
So, first batch of new runners received from a front row supplier would have only cleared 4mm and because they were not well formed, barely 3mm at the other end. My first thought was ‘l’ll just hammer them down or squash them in a vice’ - not easy in practise, since they are made from quite thick plate and the result was quite time consuming and not pretty. Contacted the supplier, no problem - issued an immediate refund.....possible manufactured faulty batch etc.
Tried another well known supplier - bit more expensive and the identical issue happened again! Clearly the same manufacturer and returned for another refund!
Is anyone else having this problem? Or a solution..please.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Thanks for the heads-up. Problem is a result of poor manufacture and you did right to contact them; I've found Thorne to be the sturdiest but have none handy to measure. Let us know if you find one that measure 7-8mm.

At one time I considered using flat stainless strips instead of runners, but concluded that the sharp top edge would cut a groove in the underside of the lug, so not pursued that idea.

Mind you, castellations use that principle without problem. Best castellations (btw) are Thorne; avoid BeehiveBits: way too thin.

 

[user 20297]

When assembling my boxes with bottom bee-space, I don't simply let the turned-over edge of the rails sit on the top of the wooden rail. Instead, I loosely clamp the runners in place and then place a new frame at each end as a guide. When I'm happy that the frames are sitting perfectly, they are secured with the nails.

I'm not sure if this could also work with top bee-space and if the edge was turned over too far, it couldn't be adjusted this way.

 

[Newbeeneil]

At one time I considered using flat stainless strips instead of runners, but concluded that the sharp top edge would cut a groove in the underside of the lug, so not pursued that idea.

Mind you, castellations use that principle without problem. Best castellations (btw) are Thorne; avoid BeehiveBits: way too thin.

Of course castellations don't use the same principle as you don't slide frames.

 

[Hiveanidea]

Clamping the runners loosely and fixing their position finally with nails might be one solution. It would be more of a fiddle than simply sitting them angle down onto the rebate, however, more crucially l feel, ‘floating’ them could promote a trap for debris that could not easily be scrapped out when cleaning. Therefore, my present dilemma in making the boxes (top bee space) is getting the rebate dimensioned to accept tight down runners with an all round correct bee space.

 

[drex]

Ignore. Read a post wrong

 

[Swarm]

I get runners and castellations from Maisemore, they are always good quality.

 

[Malcolm Stamp]

I found this to be an irritating issue and no longer buy them instead I have found a free supply of metal strap that I cut to size and pin on the edge at exactly the right height leaving the top bee space on my langstroth.

 

[Apiarisnt]

At one time I considered using flat stainless strips instead of runners, but concluded that the sharp top edge would cut a groove in the underside of the lug, so not pursued that idea.

I have been thinking of using flat aluminium strip, and indeed have used it successfully in a bait box. Easy to cut and easy to round off the edges and does not rust. Any comments?

 

[madasafish]

I have been thinking of using flat aluminium strip, and indeed have used it successfully in a bait box. Easy to cut and easy to round off the edges and does not rust. Any comments?

That is what I do on my nucs.

It comes for a vatiety of car/lorry exhaust heat shields which have fallen off vehicles.. so FREE!

 

[Hiveanidea]

Thanks, having a runner which won’t wear into the underside of the frame lugs is vital to keep them from weakening in time. Rounding off some 2/3mm thick aluminium strips would be good, l can see that but fixing them in accurately each side is another task and will they forever stay level? Having removed the dummy board and gone through the frames in order, l like to slide/lever them all forward to their original position in one go - a nicely turned over frame runner makes the perfect rail and if it sits tight on the rebate it will never move or change height.

What surprises me most, is that at least two companies in the forefront of supplying beekeeping equipment are issuing to customers a product that is largely inadequate for the purpose and they didn’t appear to have noticed! Others must have bought them, surely?

Thanks Swarm, l have purchased a Polynuc from Maisemore - l’ll get in touch, send them my photo just to check and report back. Meanwhile, if anyone out there can direct me to a supplier of frame runners with profile A (see original post) l would be very grateful.

 

[elainemary]

Hello everyone - time to ask around.
l’m busy making boxes and found l needed more frame runners. I discovered an older galvanised pair and looked online to order more and despite the wild price variation, ordered 10 pairs of galvanised runners. When they came l was surprised to find the difference between old and new. Looking at the shape, size and profile of each, there was no common factor.
In the photo, A is the older version, B a stainless one bought two years ago and C, the latest galvanised one. I’m thinking ‘bee space’ is fairly universal at about 7mm minimum and that it‘s better to have that space under frame lugs, not least for levering them up, but to inhibit pools of propolis building up in the rebate. Incidentally, used the B version and got rivers of propolis under the lugs, albeit from a colony with more of that ‘gooey’ trait than others.
So, first batch of new runners received from a front row supplier would have only cleared 4mm and because they were not well formed, barely 3mm at the other end. My first thought was ‘l’ll just hammer them down or squash them in a vice’ - not easy in practise, since they are made from quite thick plate and the result was quite time consuming and not pretty. Contacted the supplier, no problem - issued an immediate refund.....possible manufactured faulty batch etc.
Tried another well known supplier - bit more expensive and the identical issue happened again! Clearly the same manufacturer and returned for another refund!
Is anyone else having this problem? Or a solution..please.View attachment 24199

Alternative solution to propolis collecting on the sides of the runners - I liberally apply inexpensive petroleum jelly onto the sides of my boxes. Prevents propolis collecting & preserves Nuc runners well.

 

[Hiveanidea]

Thanks - that’s another ‘angle’ and lubricating runners is all good. It’s just that l need an appropriate regular clearance under the lugs and l like it that bees can move freely under them and not get trapped. So, do you lather the rebate with petroleum jelly too? What do your bees think - up to their knees in it and where do they walk it l wonder?

 

[Murox]

Thanks - that’s another ‘angle’ and lubricating runners is all good. It’s just that l need an appropriate regular clearance under the lugs and l like it that bees can move freely under them and not get trapped. So, do you lather the rebate with petroleum jelly too? What do your bees think - up to their knees in it and where do they walk it l wonder?

Try Food-Lube instead - its a premium quality food grade lubricant.

 

[pargyle]

....like it that bees can move freely under them and not get trapped. So, do you lather the rebate with petroleum jelly too? What do your bees think - up to their knees in it and where do they walk it l wonder?

Yes ... it doesn't meet with my philosophy of keeping things out of the hive that the bees have not brought in ... there's a clue in the name 'Petroluem jelly' ...

Propolis is a nuisance to the beekeeper but the bees like it and tend to coat anything and everything with it ... I have one colony that will propolise on an industrial scale. I only remove bits that are causing obstruction and just a quick scrape or lever with your hive tool sorts out most problems that are caused by propolis. It's beekeeping - get over it - why force or try to prevent the bees from doing something they do naturally ? Counter productive I would suggest - certainly for a hobbyist.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Others must have bought them, surely?

Most don't know to check and place too much faith in a marketplace which produces a great deal of inaccurate kit with little ergonomic purpose.

 

[Hiveanidea]

Thanks Murox, good tip - off topic slightly and new to me, but does sound safer for good reasons. Lots of variants of Food-Lube available - l have found one called Brewers Lube and need to check out alternatives for ingredients and best value.

 

[Hiveanidea]

Well Pargyle, l’m thinking off a smear of ‘lube’ just on the top of the runner so that the frames slide more easily. When l used those stainless runners (B profile in the original post) they produced clearance under the lugs of just 5mm and l conclude that bees naturally went into hyperdrive filling up a space with propolis that they could not get through - literally pools of it! When warmed up it got all over my glove tips/ hive tool and suit when handling the frame lugs......l’d rather they didn’t waste effort propolising the rebate if they can be directed otherwise.

 

[pargyle]

Well Pargyle, l’m thinking off a smear of ‘lube’ just on the top of the runner so that the frames slide more easily. When l used those stainless runners (B profile in the original post) they produced clearance under the lugs of just 5mm and l conclude that bees naturally went into hyperdrive filling up a space with propolis that they could not get through - literally pools of it! When warmed up it got all over my glove tips/ hive tool and suit when handling the frame lugs......l’d rather they didn’t waste effort propolising the rebate if they can be directed otherwise.

A smear on top of the runners ... perhaps, although - even with the most prolific propolis producers providing purposeful propolisation I have never found the need. But the key words in your post are ..." if they can be directed otherwise "... I try to work with my bees, not direct them as far as is practicable.

In your original response you also suggested that bees up to their knees in petroleum jelly was a less than desirable situation and I agree with your concern ... we should avoid giving the idea that quantities of a product alien to the bees should be smeared in any quantity, for the benefit of the beekeeper, on any part of the interior of the hive.

 

[robmort]

flat metal or plastic strips are easiest to fit and use, and avoid propolis. They can be pinned and glued in position with silicone etc. It will take many years for any wear on the lugs to be noticeable.