Running out of brood space

[sjt]

This is my second year of beekeeping. The bees are in a standard national hive. They wintered well and there are now masses of brood on 8 frames and I put a super on 12 days ago.
At my inspection last week there was nectar stored in 10 frames of the super but an arc above the central brood area in these super frames were empty and had lots of pollen in a circle around the edge of the arc…as though the brood nest was extending upwards into the super.
Shall I remove the queen excluder from between the brood box and super to give them that extra room so treating it like a deep brood box? (There were no queen cells at last inspection)

 

[Finman]

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It is better that you give a second normal size brood box and bees can occupye that box.

Natural order is that bees store pollen just near brood.
When you have 2 brood box and so good queen, as it seems, bees have better space to organize the brood area according their natural instincts.

Essential method prevent swarming is to change the order of two brood boxes.

When you have now 8 frames of brood, it take not much time when you have 4-5 boxes in your hive.

Don't mind how much they have nectar in super. That hive is expanding and it uses all food to build up more brood.

Those 8 brood frames will produce 3 boxes foragers which are ready to get a real yield at the late half of May. IT IS BETTER TO HAVE GOOD PASTURES THEN.

When bees must draw foundations quite much, it may be that it does not swarm. But who knows.

Seem very good now.

Weathers are now cold. Put the second brood box under the recent brood.
When it has been drawn, change the order.

When you add supers, add allways the new over the brood box. Bees need more space even if they do not get surplus honey.



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[itma]

It sounds as though you should be considering giving them some extra space this year.
Brood and a half is much more usual here than in Finland, I believe.
Are you going to get Oil Seed Rape nearby? Have you got plenty of spare supers? (Noted single hive.)
Unless the bees are a seriously prolific strain, they wouldn't normally be expected to need double brood - and I'd guess that you might not have a spare brood box standing by. But it might be wise to have some sort of second box in anticipation of countering swarming behaviour.
Is the Queen pedigree or mongrel?

 

[sjt]

I do have a spare brood box and supers. The bees are probably mongrels as they were a swarm collected last May. They have been very prolific since the start (gentle and good honey producers too!) I'm right on the coast and OSR is about 4 miles away so probably a bit far for them

 

[BBG]

Would the panel recommend putting newly hived nucs on OSR - or - is it too much to expect from them?

 

[Hombre]

Is it too much to ask of them? Would you feel put upon if someone put a banquet outside your front door for you to help yourself?

Include a dummy board so that they don't have too much space, but you can progressively give them what room you feel they need. The OSR is great for building up colonies where the bees use up all the nectar making bees ready for a summer crop. Time enough to deal with having to create soft set OSR honey next year.

 

[Finman]

Brood and a half is much more usual here than in Finland, I believe. ?

What I tell now is a global system. Brood and half must be rare system in the world. Langstroth is the most popular in the world. It was quite rare 50 y ago here.

Modern breeded bees needs a lot more space compared to our daddie's hives.
They swarm, if they have not space.

 

[Finman]

Would the panel recommend putting newly hived nucs on OSR - or - is it too much to expect from them?

OSR is dangerous to beginner and to small hives. Hives will be filled in couple of days, brood are stucked and then swarming.

Small hive cannot handle such amout of nectar which arrive into the hive.

It is better to keep 2 box hive away from rape if you are one hive owner.

 

[Poly Hive]

Indeed: sage advice from our Finnish friend. *rolls eyes* Which may be good for Finnish situations but may well not apply to our conditions.

PH

 

[roymichaeldean]

Rose Hive Method

Hi

I would remove the Queen Excluder and let them expand naturally ala Rose Hive Method....and make sure you have extra boxes to insert in between or on top for expansion

regards

roy

 

[drstitson]

OP - you need to decide whether you want the hassle of brood and a half.

personally I'd consider moving to 14x12 (via bailey comb change) or at very least double brood (for simplicity) asap.

 

[Finman]

Hi

on top for expansion

regards

roy

never do that. Bees must feel that they have an empty hive. It is swarming which is their purpose of life, idea is make them think that not now.

You have cold spell just now. That is why do the enlargement down. in Summer it is different.

.

 

[nonstandard]

OP - you need to decide whether you want the hassle of brood and a half.

personally I'd consider moving to 14x12 (via bailey comb change) or at very least double brood (for simplicity) asap.

Even 14x12 sometimes isn't enough, I have a carnolian queen that has filled a 14x12 with brood and I have now added a super without qx to give them more room.

Sent from my mobile so the typing is probably a bit iffy

 

[Chris58]

I am in a similar sort of situation, but instead of brood, we have loads of honey and stores in the brood box and I can see all other available space is taken up with eggs and larvae (capped and uncapped). I don't know whether to add a super so the stores can go upwards and the queen can continue to lay. I can see she's walking everywhere trying to find space to lay.

 

[Luminos]

I am in a similar sort of situation, but instead of brood, we have loads of honey and stores in the brood box and I can see all other available space is taken up with eggs and larvae (capped and uncapped). I don't know whether to add a super so the stores can go upwards and the queen can continue to lay. I can see she's walking everywhere trying to find space to lay.

I was advised (hint...) to put a super above a QE a fortnight ago

 

[Finman]

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If you keep the hive too tight, colony slow down its working, queen becomens slim and they start to wait swarming. For example if the colony do that 2 weeks as it does, rape bloomig will be over.

Basic system in hive arrangement is that merely new bees need new space.

Modern queen needs more space than old native bee. Mongrels have often hybrid vigour and often they are biggest colonies. Some are smallest. Variation is large.

When a colony caps one box of honey, they need two boxes more to dry up nectar.

Bees rise upp dry honey and wet nectar is near brood or in brood area.
If they have not super space for nectar, they fill the brood area.

When you add a new box, a rippen honey rise up and new space for nectar is near brood.

When flow is heavy it is better to be more room than less. Hard working keeps the hive warm.

If the super is half filled with honey, there is no idea to make it a brood box and forge bees to move honey to anothet place. Vain work to them and loss of energy.

If I am unsure, do they have a proper amount of space for rape flow, I put an extra foundation
lowest that they have place where to enlarge.

Honey takes its own time to rippen and it is vain to push bees to do things according your ideas.
They will not obay. They do their best all the time.

 

[Chris58]

Hi Luminos - yes I know the 'hinter', but was worried by this weather change! Only 4 seams of bees as well. But will look tomorrow and add super.

 

[Finman]

Only 4 seams of bees as well. But will look tomorrow and add super.

gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood heavens...........lets prey that you do not put it over that colony.

you should restrict the space for 4 frames.

,

 

[REDWOOD]

Last Sunday I went with feed for all 3 hives and remove the fondant containers I placed 10 days previously, all 3 hives had eaten all the fondant and built comb and stored honey in the containers, after inspecting the hives I was amazed how in 10 days they had crammed the hives with pollen and nectar, did not want to super so early but I had no option as the queens where running out of space, by the way they are on 14x12 frames and only one hybrid queen a Buckfast Cycropia the other 2 are mongrels. The only thing I could think they where foraging on Is gorse which I have never seen so much yellow flowers.
PS how long can you store syrup in sealed containers ?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Hi Luminos - yes I know the 'hinter', but was worried by this weather change! Only 4 seams of bees as well. But will look tomorrow and add super.

Four seams of bees don't need a super - would suggest you take out at least two frames of spare stores and replace with foundation to give her space to lay or put them in a nuc. You can refeed them back later on in the year. If the weather is cold consider dummying the colony down