questionable teaching or not?

[JamezF]

I'm almost certain I read the British national we use today was specifically designed for our native bees

It's just struck me that if what is currently known as the National didn't really exist before 1920 as suggested on Dave Cushman's site, then it's probably unlikely to have been designed for native bees because (it is suggested that) most native bees were wiped out by Isle of Wight Disease (Acarine) which started around the turn of the 20th century. I don't really know that much about the outbreak, but my understanding is that importation of foreign stock became increasingly common as a result of native colonies dying out, so it's possible that by 1920 most "managed" bees weren't native at all.

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

When the standard boxes were designed what bees did everybody keep?

all kinds - imported bees were very popular that time as was the Buckfast

 

[Robinredcar]

It's just struck me that if what is currently known as the National didn't really exist before 1920 as suggested on Dave Cushman's site, then it's probably unlikely to have been designed for native bees because (it is suggested that) most native bees were wiped out by Isle of Wight Disease (Acarine) which started around the turn of the 20th century. I don't really know that much about the outbreak, but my understanding is that importation of foreign stock became increasingly common as a result of native colonies dying out, so it's possible that by 1920 most "managed" bees weren't native at all.

James

No I think there where still alot of native bees back then by the sounds of it on dave cushmans website, there's an interesting write up on iowd on that same website where Roger talks about his mentor during the iowd and his thoughts on the matter.

 

[Boston Bees]

Isle of Wight Disease (Acarine)

Was it?

 

[Ian123]

Roger talks about his mentor during the iowd and his thoughts on the matter.

I really wouldn’t take seriously anything he has to say and unfortunately the Cushman site is not as it used to be.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the Cushman site is not as it used to be

That's putting it mildly

 

[JamezF]

No I think there where still alot of native bees back then by the sounds of it on dave cushmans website, there's an interesting write up on iowd on that same website where Roger talks about his mentor during the iowd and his thoughts on the matter.

He asks some valid questions there, but there's also a lot of opinion or supposition presented in a way that might be interpreted as fact. I certainly couldn't deny the suggestion that IoW disease might not have been Acarine, or that the effect might have been Acarine in combination with other factors, or even entirely other factors.

I very much had the impression however that there was a very significant fall in Amm numbers as a result of whatever problem it was and I didn't believe that was in doubt. If you have a reference for that please do post it as I'd certainly like to read it.

James

 

[JamezF]

Was it?

Yes, fair point. I'm just following the herd on that one. I don't recall reading anything saying other than it was Acarine, but I'm not in a position to be absolutely certain.

James

 

[JamezF]

That's putting it mildly

Indeed. I have a local copy from 2008 that I sometimes go back to if I want to check exactly what Dave Cushman wrote. As far as I can see the IoW Disease page is entirely Roger Patterson's work. It doesn't exist in my copy.

James

 

[Robinredcar]

I really wouldn’t take seriously anything he has to say and unfortunately the Cushman site is not as it used to be.

Oh I don't know he's been keeping bees a long time and has a good reputation, he also keeps his bees on a single standard brood box which afew people on hear seem to thing is impossible, that must be an achievement in itself . He also manages to breed bees seemingly making them more native than they started, he dosnt need to import queens every other year just breeds them, you could say he's a far better bee keeper than most as if they banned imports tommorow I'm sure the buckfast bunch would be up shitzcreek without a paddle in a year or two when the f2 aggression starts kicking in would you disagree ?

 

[Ian123]

That's putting it mildly

I’m being polite I’m only halfway through the second bottle of Rose’

 

[Robinredcar]

Indeed. I have a local copy from 2008 that I sometimes go back to if I want to check exactly what Dave Cushman wrote. As far as I can see the IoW Disease page is entirely Roger Patterson's work. It doesn't exist in my copy.

James

That was my point sorry, Rogers mentor was around when iow was around. I know it's 3rd hand information but still I'd say it was more creditable than info from people selling imports.

 

[Robinredcar]

He asks some valid questions there, but there's also a lot of opinion or supposition presented in a way that might be interpreted as fact. I certainly couldn't deny the suggestion that IoW disease might not have been Acarine, or that the effect might have been Acarine in combination with other factors, or even entirely other factors.

I very much had the impression however that there was a very significant fall in Amm numbers as a result of whatever problem it was and I didn't believe that was in doubt. If you have a reference for that please do post it as I'd certainly like to read it.

James

I thought the bit about post war rationing and lots of bee keepers being lost in the war accounting for the losses quite creditable.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

f2 aggression starts kicking in would you disagree

Another myth pushed by the usual swivel eyed loons

 

[JamezF]

Oh I don't know he's been keeping bees a long time and has a good reputation

It's also true that sometimes such people (and this is a general comment, not specifically aimed at RP) can also be stone dead wrong. Unfortunately being "an expert" doesn't mean you're always right.

As an alternative example, Einstein couldn't accept the ideas raised by the emergence of quantum physics and I believe he was also opposed to the notion of plate tectonics too.

James

 

[JamezF]

I thought the bit about post war rationing and lots of bee keepers being lost in the war accounting for the losses quite creditable.

It may be a plausible explanation, but that alone doesn't make it true.

James

 

[Robinredcar]

Another myth pushed by the usual swivel eyed loons

How so? Why do the buckfast lot bring new queens in every other year?

 

[Robinredcar]

It may be a plausible explanation, but that alone doesn't make it true.

James

Oh without a doubt that's why I said its 3rd hand info, but the fact the background dna in the uk is in favour of amm and the people selling imports where the ones stating that amm where wiped out makes it more plausible to me.

 

[Robinredcar]

Another myth pushed by the usual swivel eyed loons

Do you think that myth is the same as Irish bee keepers don't use one standard brood box to?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

lots of bee keepers being lost in the war accounting for the losses quite creditable

but doesn't make it true - quite the opposite, beekeeping during and just after the war reached an all time high thanks to a government push to encourage beekeeping in the civilian/non combatant population. The demise of the native bee population happened long before the burning of the Reichstag.
So is the rest of the piece as full of fantastic claims?