questionable teaching or not?

[victor meldrew]

I have read, though I have no idea whether it is true or not and sadly I can't even recall where I read it, that at least some common hive designs are the size they are because they were made from other boxes that the original users happened to have easily available and were not particularly related to the space that the colony was believed to require.

James

the modified National brood box was designed within the constraints of WWII rationing which just about covered everything. I run 14x 12 to accommodate the now larger colonies without the faffing about using double brood .

 

[Erichalfbee]

Perhaps there are other reasons for keeping them in a single BB?

We had a talk from Tom Seeley a couple of years ago about his 'Darwinian Beekeeping' methods. One of his suggestions as part of this, was limiting brood/nest size to a single BB and single super which would also keep the varroa population in check, giving the bees more of a chance to respond.

But why would you want to keep bees like this? Wild bees do this perfectly well themselves. If you have bees in a box wouldn’t you want a little more from them?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This is how you deal with a prolific queen - not kill her!

 

[Ian123]

No that’s to high for beginners or even experienced beeks in Sussex to lift boxes…….kill her

 

[JamezF]

View attachment 32817

Is there some reason that there's a big cluster of bees on the third super up? Or is it just that they happened to congregate there?

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is there some reason that there's a big cluster of bees on the third super up? Or is it just that they happened to congregate there?

James

Just put it back after inspecting so there's bees all over the place, the two supers underneath it are the new ones I put on today as they're filling it up at a heck of a rate so that particular super would have bee the one on top of the stack as I was inspecting.

 

[TomH]

But why would you want to keep bees like this? Wild bees do this perfectly well themselves. If you have bees in a box wouldn’t you want a little more from them?

Wild bees have lots of other factors though, regular swarming/brood breaks, a fixed cavity size chosen by them, often fairly spread out from neighbouring colonies. Maybe this is why they do perfectly well by themselves?

A far cry from managed hives, masses of space added throughout out the year, no swarming creating huge colonies and 4 hives within 4ft of eachother on one stand...

I agree though, it's not how I keep my bees, but completely understand those that would. It doesn't have to be about honey production, but we all have a duty of care to our bees whichever way we keep them.

 

[JamezF]

But why would you want to keep bees like this? Wild bees do this perfectly well themselves. If you have bees in a box wouldn’t you want a little more from them?

Isn't it quite like having a pet at that point? I know of people who keep ducks as pets, for instance, don't eat them and don't care if they get no eggs.

James

 

[Robinredcar]

and going by what my grandfather told me, back in those days beekeepers very much kept them with the same mindset as skeppists - rather than use a bigger box, be prepared to see them swarm every year and collect them from where they landed.

That's not what I read

I have read, though I have no idea whether it is true or not and sadly I can't even recall where I read it, that at least some common hive designs are the size they are because they were made from other boxes that the original users happened to have easily available and were not particularly related to the space that the colony was believed to require.

James

I think I read what we call the national is a modified national, I can't rememeber why or what was modified but ill try and find out. I'm almost certain I read the British national we use today was specifically designed for our native bees , im guessing thats the reason the uk didn't adapt to langstroth with its bigger capacity. I was considering going to langstroth I don't like having more than one brood box and commercial gear seems expensive.

 

[Robinredcar]

and going by what my grandfather told me, back in those days beekeepers very much kept them with the same mindset as skeppists - rather than use a bigger box, be prepared to see them swarm every year and collect them from where they landed.

But it dosnt seem to be the case, look at Ireland don't most keep their bees on standard national brood boxs with commercial supers? Roger Patterson keeps his English near native bees on standard brood boxs?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Isn't it quite like having a pet at that point? I know of people who keep ducks as pets, for instance, don't eat them and don't care if they get no eggs.

James

James that’s exactly my point. Study bees like Seeley does but how do you extrapolate that to KEEPING bees?
Have bees and leave them alone by all means fascinating it is but I don’t think it has much bearing on beekeeping whoever propounds a popular theory in their books.

 

[JamezF]

I think I read what we call the national is a modified national, I can't rememeber why or what was modified but ill try and find out.

According to Dave Cushman's site the "modified" bit refers to a change in construction to do away with the previous double-walled sides.

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Wild bees have lots of other factors though

all bees are wild

 

[TomH]

all bees are wild

And all beekeepers are pedants?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's not what I read

But he was there, keeping bees at the time, and that's how he and everyone else around used to manage their bees

I think I read what we call the national is a modified national, I can't rememeber why or what was modified

It was modified, as a wartime effort to save on wood, the double thickness ends were done away with to be replaced with the rails we have today, the inside dimensions remained the same

I'm almost certain I read the British national we use today was specifically designed for our native bees

In your own mind maybe but your statement is utter nonsense

Roger Patterson keeps his English near native bees on standard brood boxs

Doubtful there are any 'English near native' bees just the usual local mongrel heinz 57's, and probably kills good queens in order to breed substandard ones

 

[Robinredcar]

According to Dave Cushman's site the "modified" bit refers to a change in construction to do away with the previous double-walled sides.

James

That makes sense, would save on wood I spsoe

 

[Robinredcar]

But he was there, keeping bees at the time, and that's how he and everyone else around used to manage their bees

It was modified, as a wartime effort to save on wood, the double thickness ends were done away with to be replaced with the rails we have today, the inside dimensions remained the same

In your own mind maybe but your statement is utter nonsense

Doubtful there are any 'English near native' bees just the usual local mongrel heinz 57's, and probably kills good queens in order to breed substandard ones

He was there in Ireland today was he? Is it not standard practice to keep bees on a single national brood box?

So what bees was the standard national brood box designed for if its utter nonsense, was it Italian bees or buckfast bees or something else?

What makes you so doubtful there is no near native bees? Plenty of examples of them, what makes you think they are substandard lol you think because they are not filling boxs and boxs full of brood that they arnt filling boxs and boxs of honey?

 

[Erichalfbee]

So what bees was the standard national brood box designed for if its utter nonsense, was it Italian bees or buckfast bees or something else?

When the standard boxes were designed what bees did everybody keep?
What has changed now?
Do people keep the same bees?

 

[Robinredcar]

When the standard boxes were designed what bees did everybody keep?
What has changed now?
Do people keep the same bees?

Yes some people keep amm, some people keep near native bees and as I already stated some near natives are to prolific for a single brood box? Some are not and are kept on a standard brood box I don't get your point?

 

[JamezF]

all bees are wild

Wild?! I've got some that are absolutely livid!

James