questionable teaching or not?

[Mint Bee]

A friend has purchased some woodland in an adjacent county and as he wanted to keep some bees, signed up for a taster day and then joined his local BKA.
During a recent inspection at the teaching apiary, he was told that they were going to cull a queen and replace her because she was 'too prolific' (filled one std national brood box!). Even as a new bee he found this strange. He has also formed an opinion that this BKA frown upon members (and other beekeepers) who's aim is to produce honey.

I have my opinions, what are your thoughts?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A friend has purchased some woodland in an adjacent county and as he wanted to keep some bees, signed up for a taster day and then joined his local BKA.
During a recent inspection at the teaching apiary, he was told that they were going to cull a queen and replace her because she was 'too prolific' (filled one std national brood box!). Even as a new bee he found this strange. He has also formed an opinion that this BKA frown upon members (and other beekeepers) who's aim is to produce honey.

I have my opinions, what are your thoughts?

look at the history of the BBKA and Dr Francis Smiths observations on the said organisation in his 1960 book 'Beekeeping in the tropics' it seems their ethos all along has been to keep beekeeping in the niche hobbyist bracket and to reinforce their original mission statement that beekeeping in the UK can not be profitable.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Rubbish. I hope somebody took the queen away joyously.
I can’t speak for others but my local BKA had long been run like some sort of old codgers club and your tale is straight out of their members’ rule book.
The association honey has been sold at the same price for 20 years.
The level of expertise and management was so expert that AFB was undetected till the colony collapsed.
Thankfully new management aided by our SBI is turning things around.

 

[enrico]

Everyone keeps bees for their own reasons. It is fair to see how and why some people do what they do. Is it fair to criticise them for it? If they are teaching others that this is the way it must be done then they are wrong but if they are showing them their methods and ethos with a view to them making their own decisions then that is ok. I don't like to comment on third hand stories in case a new beekeeper has got the wrong end of the stick through no fault of their own. For example did that hive constantly swarm?

 

[Ian123]

Well it wouldn’t be a surprise if she did swarm crammed in a full bb

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I can see the attraction of keeping colonies in one box with just a super or two for company as it makes life easy - especially if you cannot lift much. However it's generally believed that a National hive (WBC is worse) is too small for a honeybee colony so swarming will be more likely and the honey crop smaller than it would otherwise be. So a bigger hive is required. (Fit the hive to the bee seems a better way to work than the other way around).
The fact that the colonies around a small-brood apiary will mate with the small-brood queens means that the 'keeper is on a hiding to nothing, constantly trying to squeeze a quart of bees into a pint pot.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Everyone keeps bees for their own reasons. It is fair to see how and why some people do what they do. Is it fair to criticise them for it? If they are teaching others that this is the way it must be done then they are wrong but if they are showing them their methods and ethos with a view to them making their own decisions then that is ok

Poor beekeeping is poor beekeeping, however you want to paint it

 

[Mint Bee]

seems to be old school, this is the way you keep bees and any other thoughts are the devils work type of set up. Knowing the full story I'm not surprised but I've offered to take them through my apiaries as an alternative and will help them out if they need someone to talk things through with

 

[bingevader]

I can see the attraction of keeping colonies in one box with just a super or two for company as it makes life easy - especially if you cannot lift much. However it's generally believed that a National hive (WBC is worse) is too small for a honeybee colony so swarming will be more likely and the honey crop smaller than it would otherwise be. So a bigger hive is required. (Fit the hive to the bee seems a better way to work than the other way around).
The fact that the colonies around a small-brood apiary will mate with the small-brood queens means that the 'keeper is on a hiding to nothing, constantly trying to squeeze a quart of bees into a pint pot.

You'll need to qualify that, or you'll be in danger of falling into the same category as the OP's friends association member!
Surely it's not the size of a National or WBC that is the problem, but the space given to the queen?
If you give her more space, or remove the QE completely, the problem is greatly reduced.

 

[enrico]

Poor beekeeping is poor beekeeping, however you want to paint it

In your eyes. Personal choice. I am not saying I agree with it but I don't know all the facts.

 

[Ian123]

Quite clearly the person teaching is a muppet. There’s some good people in associations but there not necessarily those with the time to to devote and unfortunately there’s no test to be a teacher. Rather relying on those who can rather than those that should. I was told a funny storey by an ex chairman of BFA just the other day. A friend of his was asked to place a hive in an association apiary. Double brood and five full supers later, plus the fact you barely needed smoke or suits. The locals were amazed……..,Buckfasts by the way

 

[BBC]

My local BKA are very good at encouraging newbees to learn from as many different teachers as possible in the apiary. A very effective solution to the problem personal opinions. Learn as much as you can from as many as you can and keep an open mind. Your way is never the only way…

 

[Newbeeneil]

A friend has purchased some woodland in an adjacent county and as he wanted to keep some bees, signed up for a taster day and then joined his local BKA.
During a recent inspection at the teaching apiary, he was told that they were going to cull a queen and replace her because she was 'too prolific' (filled one std national brood box!). Even as a new bee he found this strange. He has also formed an opinion that this BKA frown upon members (and other beekeepers) who's aim is to produce honey.

I have my opinions, what are your thoughts?

If that is the BKA I think it is they never have a problem producing honey. I have spent many an extraction day filling bucket after bucket,

 

[Newbeeneil]

I mulled over this thread in my mind last night and felt I had to add a few words.

The condemnation of this demonstrator has been almost universal (Enrico excepted) but the OP has not really outlined (or his friend, as a beginner didn't understand) the reasons why the demonstrator would want to cull what was to his friend a perfectly acceptable queen,

This demonstrator is teaching beginners who will in the near future potentially have a hive of bees in their back garden that they have to inspect weekly. Does that beginner really want a monster of a colony on double, possibly triple brood with 5 or 6 supers on it? That may well be the ideal for bee farmers or amateurs with a decent out apiary and plenty of experience but hardly ideal in your first years.
Lifting off multiple supers to inspect 20+ frames weekly is not my ideal scenario for me as an experienced beekeeper approaching my allotted 3 score and 10 so I would think that would be daunting for a beginner.

There was justified universal condemnation of a contributor to this forum recently who suffocated a hive because he couldn't handle it. It feels to me that a beginner and monster colony is a disaster waiting to happen.

All those who condemned the demonstrator, have I'm sure culled queens for unruly behaviour and to gain traits that you want from your bees. That is all that is happening here but with different criterion and I suspect for the best reasons of the beginners.

IF this is the apiary I suspect it is, I can assure the OP's friend that if he continues to attend the apiary and learn he will be able to purchase a nuc of bees that will be very easy to handle and produce all the honey he would need as a beginner plus it will need little or no feeding to over winter.
I have been to extraction days and taken off in the region of 1000lbs from the 20-30 colonies in this teaching apiary and that was after significant quantities have been removed during the spring harvest.
I would say these sort of averages would satisfy most amateurs let alone a beginner?
I have, over the last few years, been mixing the syrup for winter feeding of these colonies and have been purchasing on average 200lb of sugar, not a lot when you consider the number of colonies.

As I mentioned earlier, the OP's friend, if he's still an attending member, will be able to purchase a colony of these bees at a reasonable price (cheaper than from a bee farmer) which are calm enough to inspect in a T shirt and veil and barehanded. (leather gloves are not permitted in the apiary normally)
in fact whilst searching for queen cells last evening I shook off all the bees onto the top of the frames (another quirk of this demonstrator) dressed as above and bare handed without the bees getting upset and certainly not stinging. I'm sure not many of you would do that with your bees?

So, If this demonstrator can produce these type of bees from culling the odd prolific queen is that such a bad thing? I personally don't think so.

 

[magor]

I have my opinions, what are your thoughts?

ve to consider many factors that related to nutrition-demography and the right timing inside a colony

plants with nurses run the hives not Q

wish be many ''teachers'' out there point out about nutrition-trophallaxy and basics bee biology and what means for colony population and demography change about nurses vs foragers about Vg vs JH about nurses vs brood about diutinus vs short lasting nurses about about fresh pollen , high protein and polychromy about beebread about backfilling about bees food(jelly) about nectar (energy,carbs) about store about what foragers eat what brood eat what new emerge bees eat what nurses eat about feeding when and what to feed each time and how will affect nurses, about bees cannibalism ,feeding eggs break , brood breaks ,swarms and them demography about entrance and pollen vs brood about ceiling and honey vs brood(nadir-super) about clean broodnest box about how to open a broodnest about nucs and brood-population frames and QC or mated Q about amalgamation which bees and what accept easier what them dont neglect , what means if frame of brood wood to wood or if holds honey/pollen arc or what if has few holes empty cells/pollen cells or nectar cells ?what are they for?what is best? what in our eye seems good but its not and vise versa?....................................and a lot of more bla blablabla, will never end, its a fookin superorganism and also teachin/learning curve is a never ending questioning , concerns and sometimes can become misunderstood from both sides ''teacher'' and ''pupil'' and often we pipils want to go straight to manipulations before learn the basics and we want a fast solution than a questioning...........

but a ''teacher'' need to ve a real responibility before decide do ''lessons'' and nowdays seems everyone wana be a teacher so if anyone said to you 'it is just like that' or whatever, prolific Q(no matter if thinks is bad or good) , change Q or just winter/summer bees or just workers or just brood or just honey(for the example jep i see it its honey but thats not what them insert ,nectar is so where them park it first,what happening next, how?why?what means?.........) or ''teachin'' whatever without argues, reasoning it and explain the beside mechanisms works just ''fook them''thnk you very much bye bye...... we lucky and unlycky to live in a time where info is everywhere its up to eah one of us whom/what to select, keep , read , listen, watch.... and how far we willing to delve and educate ourselfs, up to each one of us to keep our mind open , to be open to change and not attached, its a whole philosophy not easy at all and everyday life rhythms and all for the maney society certainly doesn't help, seems we the ones are too prolific , vape everything it lives and blooming , all is about speed and more , more and speed i think need a slow down and time consider seriously go to English language lessons, much more to learn for bees

sry me got affected from morning sound radio

 

[Mint Bee]

I'm not prepared to name the BKA on the open forum as this would be unfair to my friend. However this is not the first time I've heard from this group that bees must fit into a single national brood. Anything else is considered an aberration from their point of view. @Newbeeneil as you comment, there are a number of other unusual (to others) practices endorsed in this BKA. If the queen produced bees that had a poor behavioural trait then removing from the gene pool would be one thing, but because she was too prolific and in a teaching apiary? I just don't understand the logic other than a determination that all things must conform and be controlled.

In my opinion, they are being one dimensional in the beekeeping that they train new beekeepers in. My friend has just been asking why they take these approaches and not really finding the answers explain the rational for it. Without seeing different approaches and scenarios how would anyone have any idea how to approach the issues bees throw at us on a regular basis? I don't believe a one size fits all approach to beekeeping is healthy for beekeepers or the bees

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In my opinion, they are being one dimensional in the beekeeping that they train new beekeepers in. My friend has just been asking why they take these approaches and not really finding the answers explain the rational for it.

the old story of striving for mediocrity. What happens when these poor buggers meet a proper colony of bees in years to come?

 

[Murox]

...........<snip>......................... I just don't understand the logic other than a determination that all things must conform and be controlled.................................. has just been asking why they take these approaches and not really finding the answers explain the rational for it. Without seeing different approaches and scenarios how would anyone have any idea how to approach the issues bees throw at us on a regular basis? I don't believe a one size fits all approach to beekeeping is healthy for beekeepers or the bees.

Selective information is nothing new and whilst we obviously do not have all the relevant facts, controlling an organisation through purely club-driven information makes it very difficult for the members to try out different strategies and ideas; or to question methods or even express another opinion.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I mulled over this thread in my mind last night and felt I had to add a few words.

The condemnation of this demonstrator has been almost universal (Enrico excepted) but the OP has not really outlined (or his friend, as a beginner didn't understand) the reasons why the demonstrator would want to cull what was to his friend a perfectly acceptable queen,

This demonstrator is teaching beginners who will in the near future potentially have a hive of bees in their back garden that they have to inspect weekly. Does that beginner really want a monster of a colony on double, possibly triple brood with 5 or 6 supers on it? That may well be the ideal for bee farmers or amateurs with a decent out apiary and plenty of experience but hardly ideal in your first years.
Lifting off multiple supers to inspect 20+ frames weekly is not my ideal scenario for me as an experienced beekeeper approaching my allotted 3 score and 10 so I would think that would be daunting for a beginner.

There was justified universal condemnation of a contributor to this forum recently who suffocated a hive because he couldn't handle it. It feels to me that a beginner and monster colony is a disaster waiting to happen.

All those who condemned the demonstrator, have I'm sure culled queens for unruly behaviour and to gain traits that you want from your bees. That is all that is happening here but with different criterion and I suspect for the best reasons of the beginners.

IF this is the apiary I suspect it is, I can assure the OP's friend that if he continues to attend the apiary and learn he will be able to purchase a nuc of bees that will be very easy to handle and produce all the honey he would need as a beginner plus it will need little or no feeding to over winter.
I have been to extraction days and taken off in the region of 1000lbs from the 20-30 colonies in this teaching apiary and that was after significant quantities have been removed during the spring harvest.
I would say these sort of averages would satisfy most amateurs let alone a beginner?
I have, over the last few years, been mixing the syrup for winter feeding of these colonies and have been purchasing on average 200lb of sugar, not a lot when you consider the number of colonies.

As I mentioned earlier, the OP's friend, if he's still an attending member, will be able to purchase a colony of these bees at a reasonable price (cheaper than from a bee farmer) which are calm enough to inspect in a T shirt and veil and barehanded. (leather gloves are not permitted in the apiary normally)
in fact whilst searching for queen cells last evening I shook off all the bees onto the top of the frames (another quirk of this demonstrator) dressed as above and bare handed without the bees getting upset and certainly not stinging. I'm sure not many of you would do that with your bees?

So, If this demonstrator can produce these type of bees from culling the odd prolific queen is that such a bad thing? I personally don't think so.

I'll just say I do not agree with you and leave it there.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I'll just say I do not agree with you and leave it there.

Thank you John. I respect your honesty, but I think the only thing to be disagreed with in my post was that beginners would probably not be suited to large colonies initially. The rest was just facts. If you disagree with that then I think we agree to disagree.

Edit.
Sorry John, I've just reread my post, you can also disagree with my last sentence.