Question on Nucleus method of swarm control

[david230757]

The Nucleus method of swarm control moves the queen into a small new colony leaving the flying bees and brood to make her replacement. But I've not found consistent advice whether to leave them
a) only one sealed QC (if there is one)
b) no sealed QCs, (but large uncapped ones are OK)
c) only small QCs with larvae in royal jelly (destroying all large QCs)
d) only eggs and larva (destroying all QCs)

I've come up with these thoughts/questions/theories:
- leaving a sealed QC is risky because it might hatch and lead a swarm if other QC's have been started off from eggs/larvae
- any uncapped QC's won't hatch for at least 8 days so there's no risk of swarming if I inspect again 7 days later. But if I can't see inside a large uncapped QC is it risky to rely on it?
- or is it safer to start with a larvae that I can see is OK?
- or are they less likely to try to swarm again later with a new queen if they have to start from scratch making emergency QCs? So their "swarming urge" is switched off.

I'm trying to improve my understanding rather than just follow methods blindly so would appreciate feedback with reasons please.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you are going to se the nuc method, you start when you find the first occupied QC's (whether sealed or open)
You immedieately remove the queen and the frame you find her on (making sure to remove any QCs)
You put the queen and frame in a nuc with enough stores to last a week or two, give her another empty drawn frame, fill the rest of the box with foundation and shake a frame or two of nurse bees in as well. put that nuc elsewhere but in the same apiary.
Now you tackle the main hive - whatever you do here, they will not swarm until a new queen has emerged, so don't panic.
go through thehive thoroughly, select one good open Queen cell as a 'keeper' and mark the frame it's on and tear down all the rest.
Go back in to the hive in six or seven days, check that your chosen QC still looks viable, then tear down any more emergency cells the bees have produces since you were last in, then wait for the new queen to emerge and get mated.
Inspect the nuc as normal, still looking for new QC's. if eventually you find one or two QC's I'd assume supersedure and let them carry on.

 

[david230757]

Thanks, but any reason to leave "one good open queen cell" as a keeper (apart from it just works)?
In David Evans blog he emphasises the need to destroy all large queen cells and only leave ones with very small larvae. He has a picture of a 3 day old QC and says anything like that should be removed.
I'm sure they both work but I was hoping to understand the reasons for doing something. I'm fine with everything else in the process.

 

[Finman]

Thanks, but any reason to leave "one good open queen cell" as a keeper (apart from it just works)?

If the hive has allready queen cells, the hive has swarming fever. You can stop it only with artificial swarm method.
A nuc does not help.

 

[BugsInABox]

If the hive has allready queen cells, the hive has swarming fever. You can stop it only with artificial swarm method.
A nuc does not help.

That was my experience last year - but 'The Apiarist' blog disagrees.

 

[Finman]

That was my experience last year - but 'The Apiarist' blog disagrees.

Artifical swarm was invented 120 years ago by Mr. Demaree. The Apiarist block can have what ever opinion,. It does not change old facts.

 

[BugsInABox]

Artifical swarm was invented 120 years ago by Mr. Demaree. The Apiarist block can have what ever opinion,. It does not change old facts.

Presumably he wouldn't think it works if it never does. Is the point not more about if, in your opinion, it works reliably rather than at all.

 

[Finman]

Presumably he wouldn't think it works if it never does. Is the point not more about if, in your opinion, it works reliably rather than at all.

??????? WHAT do you mean?

With Carniolan race working is much more difficult than with Italians. Aften my experieces. And clipping a queen wing is a good practice.

 

[david230757]

That was my experience last year - but 'The Apiarist' blog disagrees.

did you follow the instructions in his blog to remove all QC's apart from one's with very small larvae? I've been trying to understand if that's meant to make a difference

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks, but any reason to leave "one good open queen cell" as a keeper (apart from it just works)?
In David Evans blog he emphasises the need to destroy all large queen cells and only leave ones with very small larvae. He has a picture of a 3 day old QC and says anything like that should be removed.
I'm sure they both work but I was hoping to understand the reasons for doing something. I'm fine with everything else in the process.

I'm afraid David Evans has got this one wrong, why does he emphasise? If the QC is open, and you can see the larvae looks healthy and well fed with royal jelly, it doesn't matter how old the larvae is. I think he's got confused with selecting a larva in a worker cell for grafting or 'promoting' to queen in an emergency queen cell, or even an emergency queen cell made after a swarm has left rather than a larva that's been
in a queen cell from the outset

Artifical swarm was invented 120 years ago by Mr. Demaree.

No it wasn't you are thinking of Pagden, either that or you've totally changed your tune from the last time the subject was brought up.

 

[Erichalfbee]

did you follow the instructions in his blog to remove all QC's apart from one's with very small larvae? I've been trying to understand if that's meant to make a difference

It’s supposed to guarantee that the new queen is well nourished right from the start. I do the nuc method on one or two every year and simply choose a nice cell from the start but you have to be certain there is only one queen cell for the bees to raise. Where I do think it’s important is if you do a pre emptive split and rely on emergency cells. You should choose one that’s been raised on young larvae

 

[Finman]

did you follow the instructions in his blog to remove all QC's apart from one's with very small larvae? I've been trying to understand if that's meant to make a difference

When You remove all queen cells, bees start to rear new cells to compendate the lost.

 

[Erichalfbee]

But you leave one and remove all the subsequent emergency cells

 

[Finman]

No it wasn't you are thinking of Pagden, either that or you've totally changed your tune from the last time the subject was brought up.

So you have told. But Padgen did not had movable combs. He could not separate brood and the laying queen like Demaree did.

Demaree innovation was: separate brood and the queen and bees give up swarming.

 

[Finman]

But you leave one and remove all the subsequent emergency cells

Mostly I let virgins fight to the happy end. Or I put some inside the cages... there are alternatives how to do it.

Often I graft larvae from a better hive and I rear queens in a swarming hive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That was my experience last year - but 'The Apiarist' blog disagrees.

I've often ended up taking the queen away after finding swarm cells - haven't got the time or the spare kit to faff around with Pagdens.
Hasn't failed yet

 

[BugsInABox]

did you follow the instructions in his blog to remove all QC's apart from one's with very small larvae? I've been trying to understand if that's meant to make a difference

I left 2. Then Nuc swarmed (or absconded is more correct I suppose). The orginal hive was ok.

 

[Finman]

I left 2. Then Nuc swarmed (or absconded is more correct I suppose). The orginal hive was ok.

Why the hive abscond? It is called swarming, if bees are out but they do not get the queen with them.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I left 2. Then Nuc swarmed (or absconded is more correct I suppose). The orginal hive was ok.

why did you leave QC's in the nuc if that's where the queen was?

 

[Ian123]

The question was also swarm control not increase you can also unite back maintaining a larger workforce.