Question on Nucleus method of swarm control

[Finman]

At least I know how to succeed in artificial swarm.

Then it has failed if I move original hive too short distance ( 3 metre) or I put it in a wrong place. It really has meaning where you put an old hive. Then you must look the site, how to reunite hive parts again.

If just swarmed swarm returns home (no queen), you cannot do artificial swarm after that. Bees believe that they swarmed and changed their address. they do not move to their old place.

 

[BugsInABox]

why did you leave QC's in the nuc if that's where the queen was?

I didnt, queen in the nuc - but they flew anyway - all of them. Now, I'm talkign about the 'nuc' being the other end of a TBH with loads of leaks. (I didnt know better)

 

[BugsInABox]

??????? WHAT do you mean?

With Carniolan race working is much more difficult than with Italians. Aften my experieces. And clipping a queen wing is a good practice.

Don't SHOUT . What I mean is, saying AS is the 'only' way is going to be hard to sustain.

 

[Finman]

Don't SHOUT . What I mean is, saying AS is the 'only' way is going to be ahrd to sustain.

I fo notindersran

 

[BugsInABox]

I fo notindersran

Dont worry - my dyslexic spelling can't be helping you!

 

[Finman]

Dont worry - my dyslexic spelling can't be helping you!

It was smartphone dyslexia. Not me

 

[BugsInABox]

It was smartphone. Not me

Me not you.

Re phones: I've told mine to ignore autoc0rrect so often, I've made it dyslexic too.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I've always used the nuc method sucessfully. Remove the queen, leave an good open queen cell and go back a week later to make sure it's still ok. Knock down all the other queen cells and leave them to it.

 

[david230757]

Just had a reply from David Evans (the apiarist) saying he only leaves very small larvae in order to give a better idea (+/- 24 hours) of the emergence date of the new queen. I can see why that would be useful and I can also see why you might not be bothered and just leave a good open queen cell instead.

I always think it's good to know the reasons for doing something. Thanks for your contributions and I'm happy to have my confusion cleared up.

 

[Finman]

I've always used the nuc method sucessfully. Remove the queen, leave an good open queen cell and go back a week later to make sure it's still ok. Knock down all the other queen cells and leave them to it.

Well, never heard.

You take the queen off and the hive do not swarm.....

There is a problem when there is a hidden queen cell. But You have never had hidden queen cell...

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My principle is that the queen should lay with full speed that the hive produce new bees for main honey flow (July).

Full speed laying demands that the queen has a strong colony, which forage and nurse larvae. (June).

If the queen has been taken off, it cannot produce new bees.

If parent hive has only a queen cell, which mate after 3 weeks, and new bees emerge after 6 weeks, summer will be Then over.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just had a reply from David Evans (the apiarist) saying he only leaves very small larvae in order to give a better idea (+/- 24 hours) of the emergence date of the new queen. I can see why that would be useful and I can also see why you might not be bothered and just leave a good open queen cell instead.

I always think it's good to know the reasons for doing something. Thanks for your contributions and I'm happy to have my confusion cleared up.

At least you know why he suggests it.
For me it’s neither here nor there. If you have a large open queen cell with a larva inside it’s going to be 7 days old so 9 days from emergence. Small queen cell is going to be 3/4 days old? I don’t think 3 days makes much difference.

 

[oliver90owner]

Then Nuc swarmed (or absconded is more correct I suppose).

They are two entirely different happenings.

IMO, far better to follow the Pagden route and re-unite later if no increase is desired.

 

[North End Bees]

But I've not found consistent advice whether to leave them
a) only one sealed QC (if there is one)
b) no sealed QCs, (but large uncapped ones are OK)
c) only small QCs with larvae in royal jelly (destroying all large QCs)
d) only eggs and larva (destroying all QCs)

The only thing that's definite about the whole thing is that you won't get consistent advice!

I attended a lecture a couple or three years back and afterwards David Evans and Wally Shaw had an extremely polite but firm exchange about how many QCs to leave in the main hive. Each was adamant their way was the most reliable!

So their "swarming urge" is switched off.

Accept this is just not going to happen!

 

[david230757]

The only thing that's definite about the whole thing is that you won't get consistent advice!

I attended a lecture a couple or three years back and afterwards David Evans and Wally Shaw had an extremely polite but firm exchange about how many QCs to leave in the main hive. Each was adamant their way was the most reliable!

Accept this is just not going to happen!

I do appreciate theadvice

 

[North End Bees]

I do appreciate theadvice

My "Accept this is just not going to happen" comment was re the bees deciding not to swarm.
Not to you not getting good advice!

 

[robmort]

Interesting discussion and to me surprising that these methods, which have been known for many years, still cause confusion often because the reasons for doing them are not clear.

This may need a seperate thread, but regarding the Pagden method (so-called AS), there's a good, well-reasoned, article in this month's BBKA magazine by Wally Shaw which I haven't seen discussed here, surprisingly. He says that it isn't usually well explained in the books (I agree) and is less than 50% reliable. The main reason for the poor results is because the artificial swarm created is nothing like a prime natural swarm and won't fool the bees. A natural prime swarm contains 70% young bees whereas the AS contains a queen with mainly old flying bees who often will build more QCs.

 

[madasafish]

I have a simple rule.
I don't like swarmy bees.
So I ALWAYS requeen the split and the original hive with a hopefully less swarmy one.

I found out about 2 years after starting beekeeping that leaving more than on QC in a nuc /hives is a recipe for it to swarm
(Obviously my bees never read the correct books)

 

[david230757]

True there are lots of different opinions and ways of doing things but I find understanding the underlying principles easier to remember and adapt to circumstances. So generally advice with explanation is more helpful than just a prescriptive set of steps to follow.

 

[elainemary]

@david230757 A method of reducing cells I've found works well & reduces the risk of missing any smaller emergency cells later, is when you remove the queen, go through the 'parent' box and just take down SEALED cells, leaving all OPEN cells. Mark the frames with open cells and take a picture of the frame with the one you'd like to keep - well provisioned with food, nice larva. By leaving all the open cells the bees are LESS LIKELY to make loads of emergency cells. Presumably the pheromones given off by the sealed cells must indicate to the bees they don't need to make loads more, as they have plenty in the 'bank'. This means when you go back in about 7 days, before any queens emerge, there is a lower likelihood of emergency cells built in the meantime. Also all the open ones will have been fed well, which is what you want to make a good queen. Emergency cells are a lot easier to miss than swarm cells, especially if you're a relative beginner, as they are smaller and can be numerous. You can then just go through the frames and remove all the sealed ones except the one you liked and took a photo of, to check it's position on the frame.

 

[david230757]

Interesting discussion and to me surprising that these methods, which have been known for many years, still cause confusion often because the reasons for doing them are not clear.

This may need a seperate thread, but regarding the Pagden method (so-called AS), there's a good, well-reasoned, article in this month's BBKA magazine by Wally Shaw which I haven't seen discussed here, surprisingly. He says that it isn't usually well explained in the books (I agree) and is less than 50% reliable. The main reason for the poor results is because the artificial swarm created is nothing like a prime natural swarm and won't fool the bees. A natural prime swarm contains 70% young bees whereas the AS contains a queen with mainly old flying bees who often will build more QCs.

I've read Wally Shaw's papers & found them very interesting and clear, he has a couple of zoom talks coming up