Queen improvement for an idiot

[SDM]

A good point that's overlooked in the search for the holy grail of purity imho, I think its healthy that amm from different areas are maintained in their areas and gives credence to the idea of local adaption too.

Surely you can only give credence to local adaptation by comparison with non locally adapted? Not that i think the concept needs credence, what does is that it is of any benefit to beekeeping.

 

[For want of a better word]

A good point that's overlooked in the search for the holy grail of purity imho, I think its healthy that amm from different areas are maintained in their areas and gives credence to the idea of local adaption too.

Precisely........

Nadelik Lowen

 

[B+.]

Precisely........

Nadelik Lowen

If the "local area" is so different to the rest of the country, how viable would those colonies bee to the rest of us?

 

[mbc]

If the "local area" is so different to the rest of the country, how viable would those colonies bee to the rest of us?

I'm not really concerned about viability elsewhere more sustainable utility where they come from.

 

[B+.]

I'm not really concerned about viability elsewhere more sustainable utility where they come from.

I see. Thank you for your candid answer. That explains why most people don't get on with Amm

 

[mbc]

I see. Thank you for your candid answer. That explains why most people don't get on with Amm

Not really, most people wont have experienced good amm to form an opinion of them, and as you well know, good bees will out wherever they are, its just that thats not my particular concern.

 

[TooBee...]

Surely you can only give credence to local adaptation by comparison with non locally adapted? Not that i think the concept needs credence, what does is that it is of any benefit to beekeeping.

Are you saying that you believe that there is or is not local adaption within the existing subspecies (in the context of this conversation we're talking about Amm), I'm not aware of it. I'm aware of some research into this area, but it has not, to the best of my knowledge, confirmed local adaption, only some DNA markers which are thought to be unique to an area without changing the bees traits (meaning, it's of no use to bee or beek).

The adaption that we talk about could equally be bees being imported into an area, like here, and the dominant genes becoming well dominant, for no 'local adaption' reason. The small number of skeps imported into Ireland a thousand years ago may just have had large trachea bees, which spread thoughout Ireland, then the IoW disease comes along and suddenly these large tracheas are now a reason for their susceptibility. Another example of the health of the local population being improved by increasing genetic diversity within them.

 

[SDM]

Only from memory, but isnt there a French Amm with adapted brood cycle to heather ?

 

[SDM]

Quick search comes up with the Landes ecotype of Amm. New i'd seen it somewhere.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAKegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2mrqxupvLbRLKG1sudzma0

 

[TooBee...]

Does this research show that this Amm Landes strain has a twin peak brood period,
because of it's genetics or
because of it's ability to alter brood rearing due to nectar / pollen flow?

Surely taking the hives that showed this trait the most clearly, and moving them to an environment were there was a nectar flow with only one peak instead of two, would find out if it was genetic or an ability to react to their surroundings?

 

[Beefriendly]

Are you saying that you believe that there is or is not local adaption within the existing subspecies (in the context of this conversation we're talking about Amm), I'm not aware of it. I'm aware of some research into this area, but it has not, to the best of my knowledge, confirmed local adaption, only some DNA markers which are thought to be unique to an area without changing the bees traits (meaning, it's of no use to bee or beek)..

The dogma suggest they are best adapted, but as many if us have found foreign interlopers from different climates thrive better than most of our supposed locally adapted mongrels. Good bees will always win-out.
I try to make a point about how locally adapted can you be when you are artificially kept in a hive, treated for disease and fed when required?

Adaption to local nectar sources is a bit of a self regulatory mechanism. If there is bugger all around to forage on you won't be able to make (unless artificially fed) large brood nests. You cannot generate lareg colonies with no resources.
Ruttner described some the upland bees in my area as "heather bees". I'e if your nest/skep was close to heather there was bugger all to forage on until summer. And then, perhaps not surprisingly, the brood nests expanded as the heather flowered.
The question really was did the forage determine the size of the bees nest or would they have kept it artificially small if fed or moved to an area with copious spring nectar flows?

My limited experience suggests that the available nectar (and pollen) has the biggest influence, but whether this is "local adaption" is a mute point.

 

[TooBee...]

...Good bees will always win-out.
...how locally adapted can you be when you are artificially kept in a hive, treated for disease and fed when required?

Adaption to local ... I'e if your nest/skep was close to heather there was bugger all to forage on until summer. And then, perhaps not surprisingly, the brood nests expanded as the heather flowered.
The question really was did the forage determine the size of the bees nest or would they have kept it artificially small if fed or moved to an area with copious spring nectar flows?

My limited experience suggests that the available nectar (and pollen) has the biggest influence, but whether this is "local adaption" is a mute point.

Excellent points, thank you. I was thinking along the same lines, but without enough first hand experience I wasn't too confident about my suspicions ... about Ruttner, the more I read about him, and also what he wrote, the less I think of him as a person and an author... if you see what I mean.

 

[B+.]

Excellent points, thank you. I was thinking along the same lines, but without enough first hand experience I wasn't too confident about my suspicions ... about Ruttner, the more I read about him, and also what he wrote, the less I think of him as a person and an author... if you see what I mean.

I wouldn't dismiss him. He was a good investigator. Some scientists don't like writing though. I tried to convince Pim (Prof Brascamp) to write a book on breeding which I think would go down well. He is only interested in scientific papers though and isn't interested in writing "generalist" books.

 

[Beefriendly]

Excellent points, thank you. I was thinking along the same lines, but without enough first hand experience I wasn't too confident about my suspicions ... about Ruttner, the more I read about him, and also what he wrote, the less I think of him as a person and an author... if you see what I mean.

Can't see why you think less of him. He accurately described the various bees and their characteristics, came up with wing vein rations for distinguishing between mongrels and pure strains etc etc. He was very good.
I really liked his tongue in cheek comment about the English black bee which he described as a "modest bee"...

 

[SDM]

Does this research show that this Amm Landes strain has a twin peak brood period,
because of it's genetics or
because of it's ability to alter brood rearing due to nectar / pollen flow?

Surely taking the hives that showed this trait the most clearly, and moving them to an environment were there was a nectar flow with only one peak instead of two, would find out if it was genetic or an ability to react to their surroundings?

Thats what they did with other Amm from somewhere near Paris. I dont recall if the brood cycle remained constant but both sets of bees performed poorly in the others area.

 

[Finman]

The adaption that we talk about could equally be bees being imported into an area, like here, and the dominant genes becoming well dominant, for no 'local adaption' reason. The small number of skeps imported into Ireland a thousand years .

Hmm..

Our bees are all imported and they are imported all the time.
Their genes must be already adapted to our surroundings and climate.
There is no time to wait, when they are going to adapt. They will die during couple of years and no one try them again.

I have nursed several bee races and AMM has no such abilities which I cry for.

Most of bee races are such that they react on bad weather and lack of food. They put save mode on, that they do not starve dead.

Even if I feed pollen patty, colonies reduce brooding 50% if there are one week bad weather and they cannot forage on willows. But when sun shines, they fill combs very quickly with eggs


.

 

[Beefriendly]

I have nursed several bee races and AMM has no such abilities which I cry for.

Well said Finman.

 

[For want of a better word]

Hmm..

Our bees are all imported and they are imported all the time.
Their genes must be already adapted to our surroundings and climate.
There is no time to wait, when they are going to adapt. They will die during couple of years and no one try them again.

I have nursed several bee races and AMM has no such abilities which I cry for.

Most of bee races are such that they react on bad weather and lack of food. They put save mode on, that they do not starve dead.

Even if I feed pollen patty, colonies reduce brooding 50% if there are one week bad weather and they cannot forage on willows. But when sun shines, they fill combs very quickly with eggs


.

Please do not cry..... here is a little song to cheer you up

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&q=dominick+the+donkey+christmas+song

Nos da

 

[Finman]

Please do not cry.....
Nos da

I just said that I do not cry. 28 years experience about that.

IT was about 1990 when last black drones stopped to fly on sky. Varroa killed all black bees from South Eastern Finland.

I wonder now, how it is possible that Black Bee has same features as all other bees have. But black bee is the best in those features! And one of the best to protect its nest.

About songs... I recommend Dimash to you Cheer.
.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

So next year I would like to start a little bit of queen breeding.

I'm going to attempt to do it using the Nicot cups because I accidentally got excited and bought a set online. I've read an eBook about the system which seems to make sense to me. We'll see what happens.

What I'm wondering is how effective any selection will be with my 6 colonies. Essentially they have all come from 3 swarms in different areas so there is no obvious bloodline to any of them. Their characteristics vary of course but there is no clear leader.

Is it worth trying to use what I have to improve, or do I need to import some genetics into the apiary (I don't mean from abroad, rather from outside of the apiary).

Breed from your best - the last to swarm if they are swarmy for example - and keep doing this for a few years and they should improve.