Queen improvement for an idiot

[Stedic]

So next year I would like to start a little bit of queen breeding.

I'm going to attempt to do it using the Nicot cups because I accidentally got excited and bought a set online. I've read an eBook about the system which seems to make sense to me. We'll see what happens.

What I'm wondering is how effective any selection will be with my 6 colonies. Essentially they have all come from 3 swarms in different areas so there is no obvious bloodline to any of them. Their characteristics vary of course but there is no clear leader.

Is it worth trying to use what I have to improve, or do I need to import some genetics into the apiary (I don't mean from abroad, rather from outside of the apiary).

 

[Hivemaker.]

Is it worth trying to use what I have to improve, or do I need to import some genetics into the apiary (I don't mean from abroad, rather from outside of the apiary

Of course, if you are happy with the bees you have then raise some queens from the best of them, after they have mated and you can see what their offspring are like, select the best of them to go forward with your queen rearing, cull any that are not to your liking.

 

[Finman]

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Then you got 6 laying queens, which are sisters. Next summer all drones are near relatives. Inbreeding is loaded to next rearing round. You ought to buy a new queen, from which you craft new queens.

 

[Eyeman]

I've run a small scale 'breeding from the best' queen rearing operation for 10 years. Your newly reared queens will be influenced by the genetics of your nearby fellow beekeepers as your queens are more than likely to mate with drones outside your apiary. It works for me. Go for it.

 

[Finman]

I've run a small scale 'breeding from the best' queen rearing operation for 10 years. Your newly reared queens will be influenced by the genetics of your nearby fellow beekeepers as your queens are more than likely to mate with drones outside your apiary. It works for me. Go for it.

I have done it 50 years and did not work for me. If you take daughters from your best hives, queens are nothing else than local mongrels.

Best hives in my 20 hives apiary have been hybrids. Carnica x Italian hybrids are easy to notice. But if hybrid is poor Italian x good Italian, nothing tells about it.

When I have had 20 hives, it is difficult to find mother queen from that gang. That is why I have bought every year 3 new queens from professional queen sellers.

If you want to rear queens, you just do it, but do not believe too much about best local mongrels.
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When your selections go wrong, nothing alarms about that, if you do not buy good laying queens and compare it to your own queens.

Select and compare. Just for interest, if nothing more.

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[domino]

Take your six hives split them into two groups: ones you like, ones you don't like as much.

Raise queens from the former. That is what I do and I've seen an improvement in my stock over the last few years.

I also swap queens with other beekeeping friends I know who raise their own queens.

 

[For want of a better word]

Take your six hives split them into two groups: ones you like, ones you don't like as much.

Raise queens from the former. That is what I do and I've seen an improvement in my stock over the last few years.

I also swap queens with other beekeeping friends I know who raise their own queens.

This is working well within Cornwall... I have selected for calmness, low swarming, frugality with winter ( and summer) stores and a good honey gathering potential if there is good forage... all within the Cornish dark native honeybee....
it works

 

[Finman]

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It is good that the small scale reality of queen rearing emerges too in this forum.

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[Finman]

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One secret is spare queens in nucs. If the queen has bad features, squeeze it. That is why rear extra queens.

 

[B+.]

Is it worth trying to use what I have to improve, or do I need to import some genetics into the apiary (I don't mean from abroad, rather from outside of the apiary).

It's always worth improving.
You will be focusing on the maternal side since you don't have the means to control the paternal side. So, start with your best and rear as many daughters as you can manage. Then, select from them.
Without the means to control the drones, you will always be subject to the vagaries of your local area but so long as you realise these limitations, you should be able to make some queens. This is what most beekeepers do,
If you did bring in new stock, you may be starting with good queens but the quality of their daughters will depend on how they were mated. Either way, you're still dependent on your local drones.

 

[madasafish]

So next year I would like to start a little bit of queen breeding.

I'm going to attempt to do it using the Nicot cups because I accidentally got excited and bought a set online. I've read an eBook about the system which seems to make sense to me. We'll see what happens.

What I'm wondering is how effective any selection will be with my 6 colonies. Essentially they have all come from 3 swarms in different areas so there is no obvious bloodline to any of them. Their characteristics vary of course but there is no clear leader.

Is it worth trying to use what I have to improve, or do I need to import some genetics into the apiary (I don't mean from abroad, rather from outside of the apiary).

Well I have been doing it with 8 colonies of the past 4 years and it works well.

You will need LOTS of mini mating nucs and 5 frame nucs.. (I have 18 and 7 respectively). The secret is having spare queens for when a queen dies /goes drone layer..

 

[For want of a better word]

It's always worth improving.
You will be focusing on the maternal side since you don't have the means to control the paternal side. So, start with your best and rear as many daughters as you can manage. Then, select from them.
Without the means to control the drones, you will always be subject to the vagaries of your local area but so long as you realise these limitations, you should be able to make some queens. This is what most beekeepers do,
If you did bring in new stock, you may be starting with good queens but the quality of their daughters will depend on how they were mated. Either way, you're still dependent on your local drones.

We have utilised drone flooding... downside is that you have to have good material to drone flood with... have an area that is devoid of other beekeepers with bees that you would prefer your stock not to mate with... and hope no idiot messes up your plans!!!.......

... OR AI

Chons da

 

[enrico]

It took me nearly 20 years of using good queens from my own stock of hives to get something that I really liked, until last spring when I lost all but one queen from my line. I will get back to where I was one day. I have always had other apiaries within mating distance so it really is a question of ALWAYS weeding out queens you don't like and using queen cells from Queens you do like. You at least err on the side of the type of queen you want when you do it that way. Production and lack of aggression were my main criteria but defensiveness was allowed! Aggression and defensiveness are two different things
Good luck
E

 

[Poly Hive]

The characteristic that no one seems to mention is............

Even the Amm enthusiasts don't mention it ......

Supercedure.

Which is a truly lovely thing to have going on. Saves a vast amount of work.

PH

 

[TooBee...]

This is working well within Cornwall.. ... all within the Cornish dark native honeybee....

Not wanting to be misinterpreted as opening a can of worms, but I read that the Cornish dark bees were seeded with / from Irish bees, which in turn were seeded by Dutch bees, so don't you mean "all within the ... dark ... honeybee (Amm)", or do you mean that because the bees are being bred locally they are now defined as "local" and therefore "native"? What is being meant as "native" within the British and Irish context? I've been told I should buy local queens, which means locally bred, but then the word local and native are being interchanged?

 

[madasafish]

Not wanting to be misinterpreted as opening a can of worms, but I read that the Cornish dark bees were seeded with / from Irish bees, which in turn were seeded by Dutch bees, so don't you mean "all within the ... dark ... honeybee (Amm)", or do you mean that because the bees are being bred locally they are now defined as "local" and therefore "native"? What is being meant as "native" within the British and Irish context? I've been told I should buy local queens, which means locally bred, but then the word local and native are being interchanged?

Beekeeping is like politics. Those who believe what others write/say without doing any of their own research often end up being disappointed with the results..

I don't care whether my bees are black, white or tartan, I just want them good tempered and productive.. Oh yes - as above - supercedure is great.. three out of 8 hives did that this year...makes life so simple..

 

[Beefriendly]

Even the Amm enthusiasts don't mention it ......

Supercedure.

Beowulf Cooper wrote a lot about supercedure strains of local bees in his book.
The nearest I've come to them are some of the Station mated Buckfast queens.

 

[Beefriendly]

Not wanting to be misinterpreted as opening a can of worms, but I read that the Cornish dark bees were seeded with / from Irish bees,

Cornish Dark bees have a lot of French Amm genetics in them, or so the early genetic analysis showed. This doesn't necessarily mean they originated in France, just their genes have more in common with French Amms, than say the classic reference for British Black bees, the Colonsay Amm's.

Generally there is a deliberate obfuscation between local mongrel and pure British Black sub strains. The later are few and far between. Whereas the ubiquitous mongrels (local bees) are what the BBKA and other organisations wish (brainwash) you to use rather than purchase exotics.
As I've stated many times; in some areas the local bees are fine, good tempered and even provide a modest honey harvest. In my area non of this applies, vicious, swarmy, non productive. So I import strains of bees that are obviously much better adapted to my local environment than the locals....given their prodigious honey yields. They are even gentle to work with and rarely swarm.

 

[masterBK]

I get about 4 or 5 colonies superseding most years. Supersedure was the original spelling before the later spelling of "supercedure". If colonies are superseding queens on their third season and the colony didn't make any attempt at swarm preparations in the previous two seasons and records indicate they are productive and non agressive then by all means breed from them. If they are superseding relative young queens especialy in spring then there may well be some sort of genetic weakness eg susceptible to Nosema in their genome so I don't bred from them.

 

[Poly Hive]

That's the type of sup I was referring to. The 3d year variety.

PH