Queen improvement for an idiot

[TooBee...]

Not sure your memory is serving you correctly, although I would be intereseted in the source of this information.

Easiest understandable work is from Catherine Thompson's PhD thesis where she did DNA analysis on these various bees. A chart from her thesis (available on line) is shown below.
Even the most "pure" Amm's showed some introgression from various imports. Italian and something else I seem to recall for the Colonsay Amm's.

Do you have a link to her PhD?

The article I think I was referring to is this
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2018.1433949

here's a Copy&Paste of the paragraph I was remembering, the last sentence is the important one, my understanding was that this is from were the Colonsay bees came from, am I wrong?

"The bees from Jensen et al. (2005) were sampled from GBBG and corroborated the records maintained by the group in that they derived from the population existing in Ireland in the 1920s as well as those imported from the Netherlands after the Isle of Wight disease (Mac Giolla Coda, personal communication, 2016). So, the large numbers of bees similar to the Dutch type detected here reflect the significant imports by beekeepers from the Netherlands after the loss of managed colonies during Isle of Wight disease. Here mitochondrial data coincides with evidence described in the grey literature and by word of mouth. Whether the same levels of Dutch haplotypes will be present in a wider sample of non-managed colonies remains to be seen. But certainly, amongst the beekeepers in the NIHBS these are the predominant type of A. m. mellifera here. Indeed, the GBBG sent bees to Colonsay and other locations in the UK indicating the potential of these types of analyses to detect relationships"

 

[Beefriendly]

Do you have a link to her PhD?

Somewhere, but cannot find it at the moment. Will look again later and post link if I can find it.

 

[Beefriendly]

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/5211/1/CorrectedThesis3.pdf

 

[TooBee...]

Not sure your memory is serving you correctly,

Yes, you're right, it appears my memory was not serving me correctly, in the Article that I was remembering from, it only stated that GBBG had supplied bees to Colonsay (no mention was made of Cornwall), I do recall from somewhere that the Cornish bees we made darker or something by being salted with some bees from Ireland, but could be my imagination, so ignore that!

Thanks for the PhD, going through it now, I wish she didn't use the word "race" and "local" so much, especially when she hasn't clearly defined them; she isn't using them as replacements of 'subspecie' and 'native'.

 

[For want of a better word]

Yes, you're right, it appears my memory was not serving me correctly, in the Article that I was remembering from, it only stated that GBBG had supplied bees to Colonsay (no mention was made of Cornwall), I do recall from somewhere that the Cornish bees we made darker or something by being salted with some bees from Ireland, but could be my imagination, so ignore that!

Thanks for the PhD, going through it now, I wish she didn't use the word "race" and "local" so much, especially when she hasn't clearly defined them; she isn't using them as replacements of 'subspecie' and 'native'.

I do recall from somewhere that the Cornish bees we made darker or something by being salted with some bees from Ireland, but could be my imagination, so ignore that!

I have spoken to just one beekeeper in Cornwall who a decade ago brought in some "Galtly" bees. Kept on an area away from the Cornish Amm hotspots, and surrounded by colonies of yellow bees they soon reverted to the background mix of bees showing a dominant Amm gene.

Seems Catherine found feral bee colony sites, but all of these were populated by escapees from local beekeepers colonies.... no "wild bees" in the UK.

New population studies on the Cornish Amm will be presented at the B4 Conference at the Eden Project new Core facility in February 2019.


Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

I do recall from somewhere that the Cornish bees we made darker or something by being salted with some bees from Ireland, but could be my imagination, so ignore that!

I have spoken to just one beekeeper in Cornwall who a decade ago brought in some "Galtly" bees. Kept on an area away from the Cornish Amm hotspots, and surrounded by colonies of yellow bees they soon reverted to the background mix of bees showing a dominant Amm gene.

Many moons ago, when I was a member of BIBBA, we were encouraged to buy Amm from the Galtee people because there were no Amm to be had anywhere else. It was this non-availability of breeding material that caused me to leave BIBBA.
Then, as I have said before, things got really nasty. It was like trying to leave a religious cult - nasty phone calls/emails from 2 of the big-wigs for daring to question the propaganda - I had to threaten them with the Police in the end if they didn't stop harassing me. They were very abusive. People should know what sort of a group they are dealing with: nice enough until you question the propaganda too much, then very nasty

 

[For want of a better word]

Many moons ago, when I was a member of BIBBA, we were encouraged to buy Amm from the Galtee people because there were no Amm to be had anywhere else. It was this non-availability of breeding material that caused me to leave BIBBA.
Then, as I have said before, things got really nasty. It was like trying to leave a religious cult - nasty phone calls/emails from 2 of the big-wigs for daring to question the propaganda - I had to threaten them with the Police in the end if they didn't stop harassing me. They were very abusive. People should know what sort of a group they are dealing with: nice enough until you question the propaganda too much, then very nasty

I believe some things may have changed within BIBBA... but in every organisation there seems to be a fly in the ointment...

Even at my local association level I have found the the jealousy of my beekeeping skills from some others nasty in the extreme .... but generally If you can wait long enough... they catapult themselves headfirst into the brown sticky stuff ... where they belong

... so I ( and a few others) do not go to meetings... their loss!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

I believe some things may have changed within BIBBA... but in every organisation there seems to be a fly in the ointment...

...and some leopards never change their spots.

Once bitten, twice shy! etc

 

[Hivemaker.]

...and some leopards never change their spots.

Some... no leopard can change its spots.

 

[B+.]

Some... no leopard can change its spots.

Quite right.

 

[Finman]

.
Try first cameleont...

Second, you wife.


.

 

[For want of a better word]

.
Try first cameleont...

Second, you wife.


.

Check your medication !

 

[B+.]

Check your medication !

There's no need to be rude. He was just continuing the "leopard changing its spots" theme

 

[Finman]

Check your medication !

Recommendations!..... Flash treatment!
.

 

[For want of a better word]

There's no need to be rude. He was just continuing the "leopard changing its spots" theme

lost in translation
simmer lungt ovr nordsjoen......

 

[B+.]

lost in translation
simmer lungt ovr nordsjoen......

Not until the 14th, and I'll be flying

 

[For want of a better word]

Not until the 14th, and I'll be flying

Chons da !!!

 

[bpmurray]

If my memory is serving me correctly, the same scientific article that I read also referenced the Colonsay bees, in that it claimed that they too were seeded from Irish bees (quite recently, I think the context was in the 10 - 20 year range) and they in turn had been seeded from Dutch (imported) bees, all Amm's, a few decades before that.

I presume you have read Jack Hasset's research on Irish Amm published earlier this year. It appears that there is a quite a pure reservoir of Amm genes here, so it's not a good idea to import queens because of the potential harm that could do. Of course, the perennial problem is that there aren't enough bees and/or queens available locally, and that works against keeping this reservoir healthy.

 

[TooBee...]

Hi
Thanks for that, but yes, I have read that research paper, quite a few times now.

However there are a few small but very important points that should be remembered when reading it, Jack alluded to this in a webinar he gave about his research. Mainly this was not a randomized sample, it was skewed in favour towards Amm bees, so it's somewhat difficult to determine the true genetic make up of bees in Ireland. This means that it likely gives an over-representation of Amm's. Jack also seems to be under the illusion that bees migrated here on their own wings many thousands of years ago, this incorrect opinion can taint the interpretation of the data.

But, having said that the research is excellent and extensive, and very worthwhile reading.

Just to split hairs, you talk of keeping the genetic "reservoir healthy", what you actually mean is keeping the genetic reservoir pure, by not bringing more bees from outside Ireland: As long as the imported bees are healthy it will actually improve the health of the bees here by increasing their genetic diversity. Your use of the word "reservoir" seems to suggest that you may think that the pure Amm population here could be used to re-populate areas of Europe (Jack certainly thinks so), that may not be a good idea as it could result in a small European gene pool.

If my memory serves me correctly, from that research paper, the bees from county Louth have less differences with bees from Holland than they do from the far south, as a result of the re-population of the east coast after the IoW disease.

 

[mbc]

Hi
Thanks for that, but yes, I have read that research paper, quite a few times now.

However there are a few small but very important points that should be remembered when reading it, Jack alluded to this in a webinar he gave about his research. Mainly this was not a randomized sample, it was skewed in favour towards Amm bees, so it's somewhat difficult to determine the true genetic make up of bees in Ireland. This means that it likely gives an over-representation of Amm's. Jack also seems to be under the illusion that bees migrated here on their own wings many thousands of years ago, this incorrect opinion can taint the interpretation of the data.

But, having said that the research is excellent and extensive, and very worthwhile reading.

Just to split hairs, you talk of keeping the genetic "reservoir healthy", what you actually mean is keeping the genetic reservoir pure, by not bringing more bees from outside Ireland: As long as the imported bees are healthy it will actually improve the health of the bees here by increasing their genetic diversity. Your use of the word "reservoir" seems to suggest that you may think that the pure Amm population here could be used to re-populate areas of Europe (Jack certainly thinks so), that may not be a good idea as it could result in a small European gene pool.

If my memory serves me correctly, from that research paper, the bees from county Louth have less differences with bees from Holland than they do from the far south, as a result of the re-population of the east coast after the IoW disease.

A good point that's overlooked in the search for the holy grail of purity imho, I think its healthy that amm from different areas are maintained in their areas and gives credence to the idea of local adaption too.