Queen cells destroyed in finisher

[Parsonage Bees]

First time grafter here. 10 out of 16 cells 'accepted' then cored out in the finisher.

Background:
Set up queenless cell builder with feed and frame of pollen next to grafts. First 10 failed to take after 2 days. Second attempt 10 out of 16 cells drawn out after 2 days (first photo).
Cell bars moved into top super of strong queenright colony, above excluder, but not near any brood (??).
When i came to check the number of capped cells I found most with neat holes dug down into the top. (second photo) Did they die?

Did I move cell bar out of builder too soon? I was thinking enough royal jelly would have been added in the first 2 days.

Why did they destroy all but 2 of the cells?

Thanks . . . . . Ben

 

[maddydog]

Happened to me a couple of years ago. The queen-right finisher (unbeknownst to me) was superceding and there was a virgin in the top box.

 

[madasafish]

Happened to me a couple of years ago. The queen-right finisher (unbeknownst to me) was superceding and there was a virgin in the top box.

Ditto
Virgin on rampage...

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Ditto
Virgin on rampage...

Possible. I have a top entrance above the queen excluder as there is emerging drone brood in the supers. She could get in here.

But i thought queens dug a hole in the side of the cell?

Remaining 2 cells could be dead.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Secondary question.

Is enough royal jelly added to the cell in the first 2 days in a well set up builder to create a good queen?

 

[For want of a better word]

Secondary question.

Is enough royal jelly added to the cell in the first 2 days in a well set up builder to create a good queen?

Depends.... lots and lots of bees... and well fed ( usual to use a feeder on the starters and finishers)

 

[Ian123]

As suggested by others your bees in the top box probably started raising a queen when you moved the box up. You really have to go through and shake bees off all those frames before inserting your grafts and keep an eye they still don’t sneak 1 in from a really old larvae.

 

[maddydog]

Possible. I have a top entrance above the queen excluder as there is emerging drone brood in the supers. She could get in here.

But i thought queens dug a hole in the side of the cell?

Remaining 2 cells could be dead.

She stings them and the workers clean them out.

Don't give up on the remaining two. In my case I must have got to them before the virgin did and they were fine.

 

[B+.]

Why did they destroy all but 2 of the cells?

Perhaps you damaged them during the process...but, more likely, another queen is in there somewhere

 

[Finman]

Why 2 queens cells left? Often the queen has emerged but the cell looks like entire.

Queen cell has dead pupa, and then bees do not brake it as quickly as living brood.

 

[Finman]

She stings them and the workers clean them out.

.

I have seen once, when the queen cut with jaws the side of queen cells like with scissor. It pushes with hind legs power for cutting.

 

[birdsandbees]

I had most of my first grafts torn down this year, definitely no queen present, it was suggested by a queen breeder that they sometimes do this as they somehow decide that they have too many and reduce them down to what they need.
I ended up with four from twenty

I ran a second set which gave far better results, 15/20 same set up so who knows?

 

[Parsonage Bees]

they somehow decide that they have too many and reduce them down to what they need.

I'd heard this as well. Were your cells dug out from the top or from the side?

Thanks all. The 2 remaining cells went into a colony at 12 days old (from egg laid). I will check for emergence on Friday (day 17) which thankfully is when the rain is supposed to stop.

I'll maybe have another go at setting up a cell builder, etc.

. . . . Ben

 

[Eyeman]

I had most of my first grafts torn down this year, definitely no queen present, it was suggested by a queen breeder that they sometimes do this as they somehow decide that they have too many and reduce them down to what they need.
I ended up with four from twenty

I ran a second set which gave far better results, 15/20 same set up so who knows?

Supposedly less chance of the bees reducing the number of grafts/QC's if you run separate starters and finishers.

 

[masterBK]

I found the starters were OK it was when the started cells were put in the finishers that several got torn down . I put it down to the fact that we entered a dearth of pollen and nectar sources (in a prolonged gap) and cool weather (despite there being pollen combs next to them and plenty of combs of sealed and unsealed honey in the hives).

 

[B+.]

Supposedly less chance of the bees reducing the number of grafts/QC's if you run separate starters and finishers.

Well, I use a queenless colony of emerging brood to nurse my grafts all the way to being sealed. Then, they go into an incubator until they emerge.
My justification for doing it this way is that the only difference between a virgin queen and a worker is the diet she receives as a larva. That diet has to be continuous and excessive. If you watch Mike Palmers excellent presentation at the NHS on Youtube, he emphasises the crucial role of diet in a virgin queens development. He is absolutely right IMHO.
Now, if diet is the critical factor, why would you change that just when the queen cell is started? The starter colony is already in the condition necessary to feed the developing larvae and a "finisher" isn't. The finisher has open larvae raised above a queen excluder so that nurse bees will come up and feed them. They can only produce a certain amount and you are asking them to share it with started cells. Why? Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean that you should. Queens produced in this way have to share the food with larvae destined to become workers, so don't always get the excessive food supply that they would using a cell raiser colony.
IMHO, it is incongruent to take potential queen larvae out of the perfect environment they are started in and transfer them into an environment which isn't ideal.
While on the subject, I want to address the myth that you will always get 100% "take" on grafts. Some larvae may be damaged, others may not be tended well enough. If you lose 10%, you are still doing well. Then, there is the potential for some to die in the cell. In my last batch of 30 grafts, I got 25 cells and 6 of those never emerged. Even in the ideal environment of an incubator, some will die.
Some people may get 100% sometimes, but they won't always. If they are honest, I think most people will tell you they're happy to get 50-60% all the way through to mated queens.

Given this success rate, isn't it strange that people are advised to tear down all except one queen cell in an effort to prevent swarming?

 

[birdsandbees]

B+ - after reading your advice on not using starter - finishers this is now what I do, as you say, what you want are well fed larvae and they are in the perfect environment already, it has certainly simplified the process for small scale that's for sure!

Parsonage bees - to be honest I can't remember, I was too busy thinking 'you little B*stards!'

 

[Parsonage Bees]

B+ - after reading your advice on not using starter - finishers this is now what I do, as you say, what you want are well fed larvae and they are in the perfect environment already, it has certainly simplified the process for small scale that's for sure!

Parsonage bees - to be honest I can't remember, I was too busy thinking 'you little B*stards!'

As I only need a dozen or so cells I don't need to run multiple frames through the cell builder. Once the cells are capped I could split the cell builder into nucs and give each one a QC or two.

And yes, I said something similar. I had a plan and that went out the window once I discovered I had only a couple of cells left. B*stards!

. . . . Ben

 

[masterBK]

In my experience I think it is best to wait until the cells are within two days of emerging before splitting the cell builder into nuclei or introducing them to nuclei of any description.

 

[B+.]

In my experience I think it is best to wait until the cells are within two days of emerging before splitting the cell builder into nuclei or introducing them to nuclei of any description.

You do have to be very careful with them and keep them warm but, so long as you do this, you can transfer them to an incubator as soon as they're sealed