Possible Winter losses - depressed!

[einsteinagogo]

This is my second winter, so can only compare to last year.

Not happy this morning, I went down to the Apiary, to hive strap down three national hives, with forecast of gales, and also thoughts in my mind of applying OA (trickle2), and getting an order into Thornes, as the weeks are disappearing before Christmas, was thinking of applying in between Christmas and New Year.

My last visit was two weeks ago, and all was well, hefted and weighed all hives, and were approx 36kg. When I say, all was well I looked through the clear acrylic crown boards (with no holes), and saw many bees, on the top of the top bars, middle of the frames, on approx 6 frames in the middle. Lots flying in the warm weather. - a very happy sight.

I run standard nationals, BB on Super, OMF, with clear acrylic crownboards, with kingspan in the roof. All were treated in Sept with MAQS, and then feed Ambrosia, to get the weights up.

Varroa drop measured with sticky board daily, low drop, of 1-2 a day.

Today, before I put on the straps, I thought I would have a quick peek under the roof..

Colony 1 - no bees seen at all, tried to look between frames none to be seen! No dead bees either on the OMF

Colony 2 - no bees seen at all, tried to look between frames none to be seen!
No dead bees either on the OMF I could see.

I was so bright in the sun light I could see right through the top to the bottom through the OMF.

Colony 3 - at first, no bees seen all, like the first two, I almost started to cry, and then, 1,2,3 bees started to appear from the top bar!

Closed up, strapped up, and left....

There's not really much I can do now, I will return on Saturday, with more time, and take a halogen torch to have a look....

Is this normal? It looks like you have no bees, and they've all gone?

The big difference is in the last two weeks, temps have really dropped, this morning it was -5 degrees C.

I've been trying to work out, what i've done wrong this morning, on the way to work, racking my brains.....

Have I put my colonies in a frost pocket? what is a frost pocket ?

if they have starved, or died out, where have all the bodies gone?

and finally, last year in Christmas, it was easy to apply Trickle2 to seams of bees, but hows does one do this with OA, if you have no seams of bees, of they are hidden somewhere, in the bb/super. (maybe this is why OA Vaporiziation is easier or popular!)

Clearly you do not go tearing the hive apart mid winter....to find them, to trickle...

I just expected they would be at the top...

Sorry for rambling, just feel like been kicked in the stomach!

 

[Moggett]

They're probably clustered lower down eating lower stores first. Try putting your ear to the side of the hive and giving it a tap on a mild day - you can usually hear them.

Nothing you can do so no point in loosing sleep over it.

 

[Moggett]

http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm

 

[einsteinagogo]

thanks for the link, I'll have a read...

The location is at the top of a bank, so is unlikely to be in a frost pocket, and this new site compared to where they used to be last year, is open, as last year, they were enclosed by hedges on three sides, which meant, the ground did not warm up as much, and were in shade for most of the day, although probably not as exposed, because protected on all sides.

However, the location I live and surrounding area, could be described as one very large frost pocket!!!

 

[Stiffy]

This is my second winter, so can only compare to last year.

Not happy this morning, I went down to the Apiary, to hive strap down three national hives, with forecast of gales, and also thoughts in my mind of applying OA (trickle2), and getting an order into Thornes, as the weeks are disappearing before Christmas, was thinking of applying in between Christmas and New Year.

My last visit was two weeks ago, and all was well, hefted and weighed all hives, and were approx 36kg. When I say, all was well I looked through the clear acrylic crown boards (with no holes), and saw many bees, on the top of the top bars, middle of the frames, on approx 6 frames in the middle. Lots flying in the warm weather. - a very happy sight.

I run standard nationals, BB on Super, OMF, with clear acrylic crownboards, with kingspan in the roof. All were treated in Sept with MAQS, and then feed Ambrosia, to get the weights up.

Varroa drop measured with sticky board daily, low drop, of 1-2 a day.

Today, before I put on the straps, I thought I would have a quick peek under the roof..

Colony 1 - no bees seen at all, tried to look between frames none to be seen! No dead bees either on the OMF

Colony 2 - no bees seen at all, tried to look between frames none to be seen!
No dead bees either on the OMF I could see.

I was so bright in the sun light I could see right through the top to the bottom through the OMF.

Colony 3 - at first, no bees seen all, like the first two, I almost started to cry, and then, 1,2,3 bees started to appear from the top bar!

Closed up, strapped up, and left....

There's not really much I can do now, I will return on Saturday, with more time, and take a halogen torch to have a look....

Is this normal? It looks like you have no bees, and they've all gone?

The big difference is in the last two weeks, temps have really dropped, this morning it was -5 degrees C.

I've been trying to work out, what i've done wrong this morning, on the way to work, racking my brains.....

Have I put my colonies in a frost pocket? what is a frost pocket ?

if they have starved, or died out, where have all the bodies gone?

and finally, last year in Christmas, it was easy to apply Trickle2 to seams of bees, but hows does one do this with OA, if you have no seams of bees, of they are hidden somewhere, in the bb/super. (maybe this is why OA Vaporiziation is easier or popular!)

Clearly you do not go tearing the hive apart mid winter....to find them, to trickle...

I just expected they would be at the top...

Sorry for rambling, just feel like been kicked in the stomach!

As above, don't give up on them yet as they could well be still in the hives just tucked out of the way of your prying eyes.
I would think twice about tipping acid on them over Christmas, maybe treat early spring when (fingers crossed) they are building up.
S

 

[Fatbee]

Buy a stethoscope. You can get them cheap online. Put to side of brood box and if they're alive you'll hear them. Quite enjoy listening to the different hums throughout the year

 

[MikeT]

Buy a stethoscope. You can get them cheap online. Put to side of brood box and if they're alive you'll hear them. Quite enjoy listening to the different hums throughout the year

Brilliant idea, just ordered one off Ebay for £1.99 incl. P&P.

Don't worry they are probably in the super which is below your BB. I have the same arrangement on one of my hives and the bees are in the super and I cannot see them though perspex crown board, but they are flying and I can see on the inspection board they are on the right hand side of the hive and are uncapping 5 frames as cappings are on the board.

Mike

 

[SteveJ]

Put your inspection boards in for a few days. If they are consuming stores they will be uncapping it. Cappings fall through the mesh and onto the inspection board. You will see exactly where they are.

SteveJ

 

[einsteinagogo]

thanks for the re-assurance guys, I'll get a stethoscope, and put the inspection board back in on Sat!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'll get a stethoscope,

No need, just squash your ear to the box in a few different places if you hear nothing at first zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[oliver90owner]

Several ways to check bees are alive. Some of the good ones are quoted above. You can also check the temperature of the crownboard cf ambient. I usually know from looking at the entrance, if the weather has been good enough for some activity on recent days.

Maybe a better stethoscope than the cheapest - the better ones are more sensitive.

Three or four frosts are not going to cause the demise of the colony, unless very weak in the first place (yes, cold will kill weak colonies).

If you can see through the frames all across the hive and there are none on the OMFs, it might be that they have been cleared out by thieves or you are the first to suffer CCD in the UK.

 

[enrico]

all I would say is don't go opening them up again unless you can hear nothing! Some of us are tappers, other frown on it, we all have our reasons.
It is unlikely you have lost all your hives unless you were plagued by wasps. They have been flying late this year, we all want to know the outcome! Let us know if you hear them!
Best of luck
E

 

[alldigging]

Tried the stethescope. Heard nothing. Gave it a tap and didn't need the stethoscope.

The inspection board takes less effort though.

 

[Finman]

.
You may lift the super and look inside. Hive will not die for that.

 

[madasafish]

I lose no sleep over my bees in winter...I just ignore them until February..

Apart that is from checking the hives are upright and undamaged...

 

[BeeBeeKa]

No dead bees either on the OMF
Colony 2 - No dead bees either on the OMF I could see.

It is really suspicious to me. I always see dead bees on a mesh floor, - from a few to many during this winter. I do not care much, as I see the colonies are big enough, and summer bees should die during all winter period. Besides the mortality rate could be increased by thymol treatment, as we all know: the remedy cures ones and kills others (the main thing is: the curing should greatly overweight). Due to a long period of a relatively cold weather my bees are probably not so cleanliness as they could be, and actually I am waiting for an outbreak of a warm weather in order to help them. I gonna clean the mesh floors, trying to disturb the hives as little as possible though. I need varroa (if any) to fall through the mesh, not on the dead bees.

If you can see through the frames all across the hive and there are none on the OMFs, it might be that they have been cleared out by thieves or you are the first to suffer CCD in the UK.

.You may lift the super and look inside. Hive will not die for that.

 

[Amari]

Buy a stethoscope. You can get them cheap online. Put to side of brood box and if they're alive you'll hear them. Quite enjoy listening to the different hums throughout the year

Seems a good idea but when I last (many years ago) applied my stethoscope to walls of brood boxes I couldn't hear a thing. No wonder I nearly fluffed my medical finals because I missed a heart murmur.....

 

[Erichalfbee]

Should have applied your ear to her chest, then

 

[Fatbee]

I can pick up the sound fine using stethoscope although my hearing is pretty good. It's not loud and I think your ears get tuned in to it. You have to try all sides until you pick them up. I usually hear a faint hum then sudden higher buzz every few seconds which I assume is perhaps bees transitioning on the cluster. A light tap will increase this sound if you're really struggling but best not to disturb if not. Beats opening the lid.

 

[BrianO]

Hi

Checked mine Sunday, all on lower frame sections clustered, see

what did you do in the apiary

post for cluster pic I posted. So would hold fire on the panic until you can examine in detail, Stethascope is a great idea to

Cheers
Brian