Poor Queens

[Mabee]

Introducing queens that have been in the postal system or banked for a while is a pain in the rear end and generally ends badly unless you know what you're doing.
Another thing is what type of bee do you have? If your changing the subspecies that adds another layer of problems or it can with some.
There are numerous suppliers that can supply UK raised queens in much higher numbers than you require and in several subspecies.
The cheap option isn't always the best option.

I tend to agree. In my limited experience queens which have been caged for a while have been rejected or superseded fairly quickly but those from local(ish) suppliers which have been caged the day or day before posting have all been readily accepted with no issues.

 

[Goran]

Once I talked with some beeks, and I think there were also some views of queen producers involved. Like: in batch of 2000 queens You buy 100 queens for your 100 colonies and what if that part is all in failure due to problems in production and rest 1900 queens are normal and OK.. It doesn't help You if queen producer says - sorry ( here were such cases, horror). I don't beekeep in your conditions ( you have miriads of other problems with so many ingression of bad, good or awesome imports and it adds into cocktails You have at home)..
But in my conditions, it worth 10 times more than to buy single one.. If I fail somewhere I know exactly what and can swear at myself whenever I want.. True, I invested effort, time, honey, money but I don't regret - quite opposite..

 

[Nige.Coll]

I tend to agree. In my limited experience queens which have been caged for a while have been rejected or superseded fairly quickly but those from local(ish) suppliers which have been caged the day or day before posting have all been readily accepted with no issues.

Queens that have been banked or caged for a long period have stopped laying.
It takes them a while to get going when released, this delay and the declining brood pheromone ( if you have left them queenless for a while like some recommend ) leads to the bees assuming she is a dud or failing.
Also during introduction the queens feet can get chewed through the cage, this leads to necrosis of the tissues in the feet and no footprint pheromone which is one of the queen cell inhibiting pheromones.
Some bees just won't accept new queens, dark bees or nasty bees are generally very hard to requeen with queens of a different subspecies, they tend to let them lay then kill them off and raise a new queen themselves and they favour the brood from the original queen given the chance. The little beggars delay egg development but I digress.
There are ofc different pheromone thresholds and different dance languages of different subspecies which adds to the mix.
You can get the queens to work but that involves introducing them to a nuc not a full colony so it takes a while longer.

 

[Into the lions den]

A brief input...we are started heather harvest today so will not be posting much until at least the end of October.

First thing. I know the Portuguese supplier AND his supplier. The supplier at origin is a good one but we had similar...though far less severe..issues this year. We are of the belief that the problem mainly flows from the complexities and stress flowing from post Brexit rules, being enforced with zeal by the UK authorities. The issues with clearing them and delays in getting them into the country means they are spending too l0ong in transit, and then after that the importer has a full change of cages and workers to do, which also increases the attrition rate. (not a problen NI loophole users have).
The last two seasons, once we had all this cage changing to do, and having to collect in Calais due to failure of UK customs to guarantee prompt clearance, all cause delays, stress and death/damage in transit. We too have found the early queens now have a higher than we are used to rate of failure/supercedure/drone laying. All of these can in part be down to circumstances in transport.

Also relevant to the thread is that the main part of demand for queens is in April and May. Perhaps you could offer some degree of supply in that time period in the far SE of England, but in other parts you struggle to offer reliable supply before June. If you are in business for same year production colonies this is no use. Thus it is fine to advocate only using home raised queens but not all can do that effectively, and it is not just for reasons of incompetence/sloth/price. You need to be able to rely on your suppliers. Otherwise we end up in a very uncertain position which is not great if you are doing this for a living.

Another thing is what I have often called phasing of the market. Other than at a particular level of the market we face issues with years such as 2022 when demand for nucs/queens is relatively low, but we all had plenty bees in spring, and a couple of seasons back when there was high losses and lots of people wanted bees, but the same conditions hit the producers as well. So in years when availability is good demand tends to be low, and in years when availability is poor, demand tends to be high. Thus you need to find availability from place not in the same position you are yourselves. Hence we have home raised Jolanta breeder queens sitting out in Italy. Purely to satisfy early season demand.....and NEVER sold as home raised.

This is a massive topic....but you need to set aside the idea that the UK industry can met the entirety of UK demand. It cannot...probably ever. Will always need a two track approach to meet demand. Not everyone can afford to produce large number of overwintered nucs and queens. An overwintered queen for sale would need to be a very expensive item. The rate of failing to over winter is high..and the breeder is as well taking a full honey crop from it rather than sell.

We can only afford to run the Jolanta unit as it lives on the back of a major bee farm so there are cross benefits and funding for it in bad years. It may well produce more queens and nucs now than any in the UK, but without the bee farm to support it and add in the instability of fluctuating demand, but as a free standing unit it would go bust. We have invested a LOT of money in the domestic raising of stock, put our money into a risky project, but have no illusions about it succeeding as a free standing unit. Cross support will be a permanent requirement...both ways.


I also see that recent posts citing various issues around strain type. This is perfectly correct. Supercedure from this difference is quite common...you just need to keep knocking those cells down until the bees from the new queen hatch and take over. As pointed out, black bees are relatively poor accepters of queens they see as unrelated..including other black bees. Buckfasts tend to accept most types easily. None of that is hard and fast...just a tendency. Worst types I have ever seen for this phenomenon are Iberian black bees.

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

And one for the beek as well?
I was devastated with the 2 I lost on introduction this year. Not about the money loss but more about the lost opportunity and potential of the queens, their daughters and improvement to the local population with their drones. The nucs didn't get a 2nd queen to try, they were reunited with a q+ colony

I am surprised no one has picked you up on this point, Jeff. Since when has hybridising the local population brought about an improvement. Yes we know about hybrid vigour but with bees, as opposed to other livestock, multiple mating with drones in the area quickly degenerates into a mixed local population with nothing breeding true.
Good for queen suppliers though because it builds demand for better stock. The vicious circle is good business for some.

 

[jeff33]

I am surprised no one has picked you up on this point, Jeff. Since when has hybridising the local population brought about an improvement. Yes we know about hybrid vigour but with bees, as opposed to other livestock, multiple mating with drones in the area quickly degenerates into a mixed local population with nothing breeding true.
Good for queen suppliers though because it builds demand for better stock. The vicious circle is good business for some.

I mentioned my experience in losing 2 queens on introduction as a comparison to the post Dani had picked up. I don't see queens as a 'commodity' but high value, this was my point.
To clarify @Jo Widdicombe , I never buy imported queens, the ones I buy are from Welsh/UK breeders.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am surprised no one has picked you up on this point,

why should they? not everyone is as blinkered, prejudiced, or is as quick to jump to the wrong conclusions as you

 

[blackcloud]

What subspecies are compatible with feral stock?

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

So

I mentioned my experience in losing 2 queens on introduction as a comparison to the post Dani had picked up. I don't see queens as a 'commodity' but high value, this was my point.
To clarify @Jo Widdicombe , I never buy imported queens, the ones I buy are from Welsh/UK breeders.

Sorry Jeff, it appears I was being 'blinkered, prejudiced, and quick to jump to the wrong conclusions'.
My point is that people buy in a good queen of an exotic strain, often believing it will improve the drones in the area but all it does is add to the hopelessly hybridised mess that makes up most of our local bee populations. Instead of working to improve their local bees they look to buy in a decent queen, which may improve a colony for a while but is not a sustainable solution and adds to the problem of poor local bees.
Of course, others who are less blinkered, prejudiced and quick to jump to conclusions see it differently. After 160 years of imports they still believe imported strains are answer. I have reached a different conclusion in much less time than 160 years. A bit quick for some people.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have reached a different conclusion

doesn't mean that you are right though

 

[ericbeaumont]

an exotic strain

Would you define exotic in this context, Jo?

The word is used routinely in these discussions, as if anything from beyond the white cliffs is significantly dangerous and significantly different. Is it, genetically, either?

 

[Nige.Coll]

Didn't the DNA results from Cornwall show mostly Carniolan mongrels down there?

 

[jeff33]

After 160 years of imports they still believe imported strains are answer

There must be a reason though? Over 70% of beeks are hobbyist, with the majority owning a couple of hives and not interested in stock improvement, thus relying on 'exotic' buckies or carnies (some of which are UK reared).

Most commercial beeks will also prefer these due to their consistencies, not having 10 years to improve local stock, or wanting to cull over 50-60% of their stock yearly until they can be satisfied with the consistency of open mating.

I personally need to buy in new queens from reputable UK breeders every couple of years just so I can get some sort of control on my stock. The addition of new (good) genes to the lot pool is in my eyes beneficial.

I will be honest, I have even toyed (and sometimes still do) with going all out carnies and getting pure breeder queens simply because because I want to make my beekeeping life easier as I don't have time and don't want to have to deal with downward aggressive stock like I had this year.

 

[Murox]

I personally need to buy in new queens from reputable UK breeders every couple of years just so I can get some sort of control on my stock. The addition of new (good) genes to the lot pool is in my eyes beneficial.

You make an interesting point. Where I keep bees now there were none, although there are now a few people with hives spread around the area. The first hive I managed to have up here came via a not so local association; a buck fast queen - her daughter was not as easy to manage; consequently I too search out reputable UK breeders periodically, in my case because its a way of gaining fresh genetic material rather than continual inbreeding.

 

[jeff33]

You make an interesting point. Where I keep bees now there were none, although there are now a few people with hives spread around the area. The first hive I managed to have up here came via a not so local association; a buck fast queen - her daughter was not as easy to manage; consequently I too search out reputable UK breeders periodically, in my case because its a way of gaining fresh genetic material rather than continual inbreeding.

That's my problem, I have at least 8-10 beeks around me which do nothing with their stock. Their drones cause havoc with my open breeding and without good queens coming in regularly I would struggle getting any descent stock.

Of course, in an ideal world we would all work together to improve our local stock but the reality is that most of these beeks can't even do an inspection properly, do swarm control, etc, nor are they seemingly inclined to learn how to!

 

[madasafish]

That's my problem, I have at least 8-10 beeks around me which do nothing with their stock. Their drones cause havoc with my open breeding and without good queens coming in regularly I would struggle getting any descent stock.

Of course, in an ideal world we would all work together to improve our local stock but the reality is that most of these beeks can't even do an inspection properly, do swarm control, etc, nor are they seemingly inclined to learn how to!

Ditto.
People who keep bees without training.
I tend to help when asked but only supply my home reared Qs if they are competent enough not to kill them at once.

As far as local stock is concerned, I reiterate what I have said before: if I started Q rearing form local sock it would take me a decade to see any improvements AND the local bees - which are horrible- will still be there to screw it all up.

Anyone who takes the issue seriously across the UK would lobby for the imposition of licensing of beekeepers and strict controls. It would have to be self funded so it would make beekeeping far more expensive and policing will be impossible without A LOT more money.

SO it is not going to happen and the debate is an exercise in futility,

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

Would you define exotic in this context, Jo?

The word is used routinely in these discussions, as if anything from beyond the white cliffs is significantly dangerous and significantly different. Is it, genetically, either?

Yes exotic means non-native sub-species as randomly crossing sub-species has got us to this difficult position where most people struggle with our local bees. No farmer would randomly cross different breeds. Yes they do produce crosses for hybrid vigour but these crosses are easy to control and repeat. Unlike in bees.
We have enough genes in our bee population to refine to something a bit better. There are plenty of people doing it already but what most people struggle with is their neighbours bringing in non-native bees which immediately sets the clock back on any local adaptation that is evolving.

Wait for our expert beekeepers on this forum to start sneering and passing their rude comments. I am surprised the moderators allow it, but we see it year after year. Most people know who those clever dicks are.

 

[Ian123]

Wait for our expert beekeepers on this forum to start sneering and passing their rude comments. I am surprised the moderators allow it, but we see it year after year. Most people know who those clever dicks are.

Is this sarcasm or just desperation? it must also irk to see the bbka not able to get half its membership to sign a petition banning imports?

 

[Nige.Coll]

The facts change to suit the argument. How can you reason with that?
Strange how there is always efb where ever people rant about natives being so good.
What did the main man say during a trip to devon and cornwall. " I haven't seen any native bees yet" upset some long standing members that now have left the club.

"Dogmatism begets counter dogmatism and is self-perpetuating." That seems to have been forgotten.

 

[Apiarist]

I tend to agree. In my limited experience queens which have been caged for a while have been rejected or superseded fairly quickly but those from local(ish) suppliers which have been caged the day or day before posting have all been readily accepted with no issues.

"caged for a while" ... more than five days? maybe, why would one? Even imported queens from good suppliers will not be caged that long.
"rejected or superceded fairly quickly" ... yes, if the hive is left queenless too long or the queen isn't introduced properly; or the Queen is injured - meaning caged too long... think I'm going around in circles here!
"local(ish) suppliers...accepted with no issues"... you've been very lucky!... or they must have been introduced properly, the hive not left queenless too long and the queen not injured/caged to long....