Poor Queens

[jeff33]

Sorry just seen this. You think a that amc, aml, amm and all the other subspecies evolved just for the sh#ts and giggles of it?
You think the climate of southern Italy where AML evolved is similar to middlesbbrough or any other part of the UK lol I think you might be due a holiday. The lack of brood break aml have due to their very long summers compared to England's maritime summers won't make a difference (unless your taking all the honey and feeding gallons, then passing their dones genes to local populations that don't get fed and have massive amounts of hungry brood to feed) dosnt make a difference?
It's more to do with cooler temperatures amm are adapted to survive over hot temperatures aml are adapted to survive.

Sorry, just had 5 days offline enjoying peace and quiet, no internet, no bees!! Not sure where this thread got to, although I can imagine nowhere as with every other threads on this subject!
I used the term most hoping readers would use their judgement and not go to extremes by comparing southern Europe to UK. I agree with AML, AMS, and perhaps others from these parts but when you look at the range of AMC, they evolve in a similar climate to ours.
Brood breaks? well my locally adapted bees and Irish Amms haven't had one over the last 2 winters because it has been so mild, just like the 3 AMC hives (UK bred) I have on a separate apiary miles away. What does that mean, they are not adapted anymore? Funnily enough, none of my hives died last winter nor needed extra feeding in the autumn and winter. They were all on an early April flow as well.
It's the same argument as livestock, why have most of the natives breed almost disappeared and are only kept by a few farmers as part of conservation programmes? Because they're not economically viable compared to other bigger breeds.
Perhaps we could take the approach of Slovenia which has made keeping anything other than AMC against the law? That would surely put every beekeeping business bankrupt within 2 years!!
Just to add a final point, I raised 6 queens from a F1 Irish Amm last summer. They made it through the winter but 3 of them were utter filth and had to be culled. The others are twitchy but manageable. If I raise queens from my F1s AMC (from B+) , I get a more or less guaranteed result for gentleness.
The 1st pic is an few AMC taken at the end of July. The 2nd one is an Amm with the top BB full of honey as well. Not much difference in yield either.

 

[jeff33]

Yes I think all sub- species can gradually adapt to any conditions through two mechanisms - survival of the fittest and selection by the beekeeper.
But to reap the benefits of these factors we need to stop bringing new untested genes into an area and stop hybridising bees. These are both backward steps for bee improvement.

I agree with you but unless all UK beeks are brought to a good standard of beekeeping and we all have in excess of 20+ hives to select properly, it's an almost impossible task

 

[Into the lions den]

I agree with you but unless all UK beeks are brought to a good standard of beekeeping and we all have in excess of 20+ hives to select properly, it's an almost impossible task

A lot more than that I think. Some really good breeders reckon under 50 only has very limited potential for stock improvement and big potential for inbreeding. Talking to a few, including from the UK...they reckoned a stating pool of 300 best...and that is 300 SELECTED colonies..not just any 300..,..then select down to around 50 over a couple of years from that as you gradually exclude demerits.

Dont shoot me on this one..this is advice from those who know more of the subject than I EVER will...and I suspect any contributors to this thread too.

Some of this thread is little better than bee racism btw......there are good bees and bad bees almost everywhere, and they are far more adaptable than the 'must be local' advocates would have you believe.

 

[jeff33]

A lot more than that I think. Some really good breeders reckon under 50 only has very limited potential for stock improvement and big potential for inbreeding. Talking to a few, including from the UK...they reckoned a stating pool of 300 best...and that is 300 SELECTED colonies..not just any 300..,..then select down to around 50 over a couple of years from that as you gradually exclude demerits.

Dont shoot me on this one..this is advice from those who know more of the subject than I EVER will...and I suspect any contributors to this thread too.

Some of this thread is little better than bee racism btw......there are good bees and bad bees almost everywhere, and they are far more adaptable than the 'must be local' advocates would have you believe.

You have just shattered my dream with my 20 ish hives ... and hence why I need to buy in descent F1s every 2 years!!

 

[Ian123]

and they are far more adaptable than the 'must be local' advocates would have you believe.

Yes it’s amazing how the Canadians and even our own finsky get those terrible Italians to survive their Winters I don’t thinkhttps://beekeepingforum.co.uk/members/jo-widdicombe.16869/
Will bother answering that

 

[Ian123]

You have just shattered my dream with my 20 ish hives ... and hence why I need to buy in descent F1s every 2 years!!

Not really get a decent breeder island/station mated or ii and produce your own F1s got to say my open mated Carnica breeder from jolanta has produced some nice queens already this season.

 

[Into the lions den]

You have just shattered my dream with my 20 ish hives ... and hence why I need to buy in descent F1s every 2 years!!

Possibly, but that 300 do not have to all be from one outfit. Can be from any number of beekeepers, but the assessment does need to be carried out with a uniform eye and consistent criteria.

 

[B_north]

Yes it’s amazing how the Canadians and even our own finsky get those terrible Italians to survive their Winters

I got interested in bees because a swarm would move into an unheated outbuilding on and off for 15 years. I would just note their presence in passing to my chicken house then one year I thought I could put them in a hive. It was Oct. and I was advised to leave them be.

Knowing nothing about bees, the only thing I did to help was to prop up a couple of pieces of styrofoam insulation, against the outer wall, with sticks, the corresponding inner wall had nothing. No doors or insulation in this old plank building, draughty as heck. I tracked these bees with a stethoscope thru the winter as they moved up in their 6 inch deep cavity between the wall studs.

These bees lived thru a cold winter, down to -30C to -38C for extended periods. March 4 on a +5C day they came out in droves for a cleansing flight. The snow was littered with bees and poo, it was a large cluster. Sorry to say that they did not make it, I went into the wall in April when they went silent and they had zero honey. IMO either disease from the previous bee occupants, mites or starvation were their downfall, but certainly not the cold.

My point is, I guess, that these bees adapted very well to both the cold and the high ventilation thru the cracks in the planks. No hive wraps, no 2.5 inch solid insulation cover, no specific top vent or bottom vent as there were multiple holes in various places, no quilt boxes filled with shavings. I also noted that they did not stir during the entire winter. While the bees I have now with a high level of insulation come out for multiple cleansing flights and many perish in the snow.

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

Yes it’s amazing how the Canadians and even our own finsky get those terrible Italians to survive their Winters I don’t thinkhttps://beekeepingforum.co.uk/members/jo-widdicombe.16869/
Will bother answering that

Think I have already answered it. See #67.
I think any strain can evolve to cope with conditions they face. That is why I believe best to stick with the dominant strain, avoid further hybridisation and improve what we have got.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Can I be the first to say that this just isn't true?



James

Beekeepers couldn't agree on the colour of a carpet.

 

[Ian123]

Think I have already answered it. See #67.
I think any strain can evolve to cope with conditions they face. That is why I believe best to stick with the dominant strain, avoid further hybridisation and improve what we have got.

That’s adapting mighty fast as many will be delivered up from southern US states. Finskys likely arrive by husky sledge, I guess that gives them a little longer to adapt! The trouble in this country is few are improving what we have, and in some cases that means better is available elsewhere.

 

[jeff33]

Possibly, but that 300 do not have to all be from one outfit. Can be from any number of beekeepers, but the assessment does need to be carried out with a uniform eye and consistent criteria.

And this is back to the point I made in an earlier post about the huge gap in beekeeping standards. We could probably work with around 50 hives within 3 miles radius of my apiary from around 10-12 beeks but it would probably take a few years just to get them onboard with improvement and selection and another few to bring them up to standard .
2 years ago I sent an email through the society looking for beeks to be part of an improvement programme, only had 1 response.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Perhaps moving to Kent might be a solution?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Perhaps moving to Kent might be a solution?

You'd have to go II then - apparently every other tree has a feral colony of unknown origin.

 

[jeff33]

Perhaps moving to Kent might be a solution?

It already feels like Kent on Gower to be fair! Locals are now branded 'exotic'!

 

[Apiarist]

We really should move on from this nonsense that Amm/native bees are all nasty and can't bring a crop.

I've never come across anyone that has said that, even in private communication, when the other person was expressing less than savory views about the keepers of Amm bees... what I have heard said often and now supported by scientific research (weakly to some degree in my opinion), is that the Amm can be somewhat more aggressive than say a A. m. carnica (which doesn't say much, as everything is more aggressive than a carnica).