Poor Queens

[Swarm]

I'm not particularly invested in either argument, but I am a bit bewildered by the idea that seems to be pushed here that we take some AMM and selectively breed over years and generations so that they perform the same as existing bees already available, apart from the colour.

I'm quite happy with the way mine perform
We really should move on from this nonsense that Amm/native bees are all nasty and can't bring a crop.
Do you want to buy some honey?

 

[Robinredcar]

Maybe have a read at some of the earlier posts in the thread, especially from a commercial perspective and you will see why.
Let's not kid ourselves, the climate in the UK is quite similar to most of Europe and the difference will probably be in the number of days bees can fly rather than temperatures. I haven't heard of mass deaths of colonies in Europe or UK this summer during the heat waves so again, the argument of adaptability and evolution of different subspecies and honeybee populations is a weak argument.

Sorry just seen this. You think a that amc, aml, amm and all the other subspecies evolved just for the sh#ts and giggles of it?
You think the climate of southern Italy where AML evolved is similar to middlesbbrough or any other part of the UK lol I think you might be due a holiday. The lack of brood break aml have due to their very long summers compared to England's maritime summers won't make a difference (unless your taking all the honey and feeding gallons, then passing their dones genes to local populations that don't get fed and have massive amounts of hungry brood to feed) dosnt make a difference?
It's more to do with cooler temperatures amm are adapted to survive over hot temperatures aml are adapted to survive.

 

[JohnRB]

I'm quite happy with the way mine perform
We really should move on from this nonsense that Amm/native bees are all nasty and can't bring a crop.
Do you want to buy some honey?

You seem to have made assumptions about what bees I have. I've got plenty of honey thanks

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

Be careful with the "evolved for our climate" argument.

I can see significant warming locally over the past 40 years. The local to me 1 meter deep snowdrifts of the19880s are long gone. As global warming is going to accelerate (COP is a virtue signalling organisation: no-one seriously believes it will influence the big polluters of USA and China), the UK needs bees adapted to warmer climates.

"The UK needs bees adapted to warmer climates"
Which is precisely why we keep selecting the bees that do best in our conditions instead of constantly bringing in new stock. The local bee population can keep evolving to be best for local conditions.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[Nige.Coll]

But you think the difference in subspecies is not comparable with
I'd say the same subspecies is probably alot closer dna match than different subspecies?
I'm all for banning imports of any subspecies. Although AMM from Ireland are much closer to native than anything imported from Europe and certainly better adapted to the UK than the poor stocks hear.
I'd disagree as it seems alot more native stocks survived IOW than the sellers of imported exotic stocks made out, maby to boost their sales?

The 2% between pigs and humans kind of makes my point, why wouldn't we choose to either breed from what's already hear or start with more native stocks from say Ireland, its surely a better bet than a diffrent subspecies?!

I'm not a member of bibba, I love their work and ideals on improving what we have. When you say foreign queens where they from Europe or Ireland?

I believe there was lots of localised variations in AMM throughout the UK before the mass imports even between county's but we are so far from that just now, they where all still AMM with slight variations but now it's a complete cock up of just about everything.

I'm all for banning imports of any subspecies. Although AMM from Ireland are much closer to native than anything imported from Europe and certainly better adapted to the UK than the poor stocks hear.
Most of the AMM here are Irish lol.
Don't blame imports for the crappy bees you've had.

Some of the French strains were closer related than the Irish ones.

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

Maybe have a read at some of the earlier posts in the thread, especially from a commercial perspective and you will see why.
Let's not kid ourselves, the climate in the UK is quite similar to most of Europe and the difference will probably be in the number of days bees can fly rather than temperatures. I haven't heard of mass deaths of colonies in Europe or UK this summer during the heat waves so again, the argument of adaptability and evolution of different subspecies and honeybee populations is a weak argument.

Yes I think all sub- species can gradually adapt to any conditions through two mechanisms - survival of the fittest and selection by the beekeeper.
But to reap the benefits of these factors we need to stop bringing new untested genes into an area and stop hybridising bees. These are both backward steps for bee improvement.

 

[blackcloud]

Ditto.
People who keep bees without training.
I tend to help when asked but only supply my home reared Qs if they are competent enough not to kill them at once.

As far as local stock is concerned, I reiterate what I have said before: if I started Q rearing form local sock it would take me a decade to see any improvements AND the local bees - which are horrible- will still be there to screw it all up.

Anyone who takes the issue seriously across the UK would lobby for the imposition of licensing of beekeepers and strict controls. It would have to be self funded so it would make beekeeping far more expensive and policing will be impossible without A LOT more money.

SO it is not going to happen and the debate is an exercise in futility,

I'm a private landlord (in my spare time...)and one who does things by the book.
I basically have to pay to be policed Its a time consuming and costly approach which deters some but those who have no regard for the rules do as they please.
It wouldn't be any different with apiaries.
As regards training,are we going to agree who would do it!!
I went to one association training event ever.
Independent internet pages were being recited verbatim and after the third (or was it fourth?) cockup I quietly slipped away and learned myself.

 

[Swarm]

You seem to have made assumptions about what bees I have. I've got plenty of honey thanks

I was answering the question you posed, John, nothing to do with what bees you keep.

 

[Swarm]

Our climate is the same as that of Northern Europe, we can all remember the diagrams in Geography depicting the various zones. We are all in the Temperate zone and no doubt, it is getting warmer.
Weather and weather patterns are more of an issue than climate, IMO.
West coast of Ireland compared with mainland European countries are poles apart. The weather is so changeable in Britain, it's a favourite talking point, in Europe they make long term plans.

But going back to the OP, which was about poor queens, I know of at least one supplier of bees who was struggling to keep hold of his nucs as they were going straight into swarm mode. One of my friends bought a nuc and his advice was to get them home and into a hive as quick as possible!!
I was at another friend's apiary today, looking at small colonies caused by constant cell building and then failing to requeen.
A very strange year, 2022.

 

[mbc]

Same subspecies but evolved differently, what is left of them, mostly European genetics from the study they did and some pockets of native Irish bees, their DNA is different to the mainland UK and European subspecies, not a lot but different, if you consider the difference in dna between a pig and a human is 2% a small change makes a large difference.
It's also hard to tell due to the huge amounts of imported AMM bees during the last century and the lack of survivor colonies after IOW.
The constant waffle about black bees grinds my gears, they weren't black in central England they were brown similar to the ones found in the south west. Dark bees not black bees.
A few years ago as a member of BIBBA we were told BIBBA doesn't supply queens get them from x, which were not in mainland UK they actively encouraged the importation of foreign AMM stock to replace the locally adapted stock they had, even beowolfs bees were requeened with foreign AMM. Granted they had swarmed a lot and gone to pot after his death.

The whole thing has been transformed from a group of like minded individuals promoting the benefits/conservation of native bees to what is now a political lobbying movement with members infiltrating positions of power in a multitude of beekeeping organisations/fora to effectively silence opinions opposed to their beliefs. Absolutely crazy.

From what I understood from the most quoted recent study of irish bees you are grossly misrepresenting the facts.
The conclusions in no way indicated that the bees sampled were " mostly European genetics from the study they did and some pockets of native Irish bees"
What sort of twisted drum are you trying to bang?!

 

[Lislarybees]

The survivors are the ones that were already able to cope with the change, or that evolved sufficiently fast to be able to cope. In any particular instance we can't really be sure which applied to honey bees. It's not only the bees that might have to evolve either, it's all the parts of the ecosystem that they're dependent upon.

The figures generally seem to be assumed to be lower than reality, but there are estimates that anywhere between 200 and 1,000 species become extinct every year. Some such as the dodo and possibly some species of giant tortoise from the Galapagos are extinct because humans have wiped the species out directly. (Tortoise is apparently tasty. Who knew?) Others have died out because the environment changed (often as a result of human activity) to a point where the population could no longer sustain itself. Some (the Passenger Pigeon, for example) are a bit of a mixture of both. One assumes that like honey bees, those species (or their ancestor species) have managed to adapt to past changes, but eventually fail. Past performance is not an indicator of future results, as someone once said.

James

Hi James, this is not so much a question for you but the other posters on this thread. You just brought up the demise of species over time due to human activity. Do you/they think that it is ok that AMM - the native honey bee to the UK and most of Northern Europe has been driven to near extinction by the direct action of selfish/ignorant beekeepers? I don’t. How is it acceptable among beekeepers (that supposedly care about bees) to continue this form of ecocide. Would these same people cheerlead the demise of red squirrels, pine martins or any other endangered native animal/insect? The mental gymnastics on show by some regular posters here are staggering.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Maybe it’s just too difficult for a hobby beekeeper to achieve a gentle Amm that gives them a decent crop.
It’s a hobby not a vocation.

 

[Swarm]

It's quite easy.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It's quite easy.

How if you can’t get all your neighbours on board?

 

[Murox]

Maybe it’s just too difficult for a hobby beekeeper to achieve a gentle Amm that gives them a decent crop.
It’s a hobby not a vocation.

I would also add "consider where the average new hobby keeper get their first bees from in the uk?"

 

[madasafish]

Simple questions:
When do new beekeepers buy colonies? Spring
Are there 1,000s of colonies with AMM queens to buy? No

Why not?
Because no-one produces them.
So there is the answer for those who want to convert us all to AMM.. supply us colonies. In Spring.

I recall starting beekeeping in Spring 2010. I tried to buy AMM queens or AMM colonies.None available.
There are still none available in Spring - in any volume and not ones and twos but thousands.

I listen to all the complaints about imported queens vs AMM queens.
The answer is simple. Produce and sell them. - in volume. Instead we get complaints. Words, not actions.

No wonder imports do well
Line 1 Page 1 of Economics states : customers cannot buy what you do not sell.

 

[Hachi]

I agree with Murray, I need queens in the spring and can't get them locally.
I think Pete Little summed it up in his interview with Steve Donoghue when he said "There's a total difference between being a queen producer and a queen breeder". Now before you get yer knickers in a knot, I'm interpreting what he said in my way, your way [being a beek] will be different...... no doubt. I aint going to argue one way or T' other.
As beekeepers, we cannot agree to or on anything, whether it be treatment for varroa or treatment free or queens or indeed whether the mystical native AMM's really exist.

So what..... we're screwed. Simples. we can all bang on as much as we like its not going to change sh*t. Best get used to it cos its happening all round us in other ways e.g. Global warming, species extinction, indigenous tribe extermination, deforestation of Sth America etc etc

 

[JamezF]

As beekeepers, we cannot agree to or on anything

Can I be the first to say that this just isn't true?



James

 

[Erichalfbee]

Simple questions:
When do new beekeepers buy colonies? Spring
Are there 1,000s of colonies with AMM queens to buy? No

Why not?
Because no-one produces them.
So there is the answer for those who want to convert us all to AMM.. supply us colonies. In Spring.

I recall starting beekeeping in Spring 2010. I tried to buy AMM queens or AMM colonies.None available.
There are still none available in Spring - in any volume and not ones and twos but thousands.

I listen to all the complaints about imported queens vs AMM queens.
The answer is simple. Produce and sell them. - in volume. Instead we get complaints. Words, not actions.

No wonder imports do well
Line 1 Page 1 of Economics states : customers cannot buy what you do not sell.

Yes. It’s easy? Why say it is when it patently isn’t.