Poly Hive's?

[oliver90owner]

it sounds more like too much recycled plastic

Now, there's a point for a question. There may be a simple answer, or there may not be.

Is the density of the whole item being 'boosted' by using plastics/materials other than polystyrene or perhaps by using different types/grades (molecular weight, per eg) of EPS, so that the finished product is not uniform (density-wise) at the 'granular' level in the product?

It may explain why the overall density is higher than some are considering appropriate for the softness/hardness/toughness of the product?

Just purely as an example:

10% at 200kg/metre cubed, plus 90% at 90kg/metre cubed comes out to just a tad over target density of 100kg/metre cubed. Mathematically (without showing units )

(0.10*200) + (0.90*90) = 101

Not suggesting this is what is happening or that 10% is a different material (but remember, beeswax candles can contain a lot of 'non-bees'' wax!), and note also that the 10% figure used in the calculation above is simply an arbitrary figure for purposes of demonstrating a random example.

It may be that, although 100% EPS, most of the EPS is expanded more than some of the rest, resulting in the 'final density overall' being different to parts within the structure (some over target and most below target densities). Hence correct density but softer for the main part, as the above theoretical example, I quoted above, demonstrates.

Certainly the MB/Sweinty 'uniformly-white injection mouldings' appear more homogenous than the apparently 'speckled' appearance of these offerings.

Not being critical here, just wondering about a possible explanation for the reported observations re the polynucs - and now the hives. After all, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating', as they say.

RAB

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

After all, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating', as they say.

We'll have to wait and see how brer Jasper gets on with his knife and fork

 

[itma]

...
Certainly the MB/Sweinty 'uniformly-white injection mouldings' appear more homogenous than the apparently 'speckled' appearance of these offerings.
...

/ I haven't examined the MB/Swienty products.

The Paynes products are made by Expanded Polystyrene Bead moulding.
The raw material is hollow beads with a drop of liquid inside.
Normally, these are firstly partly puffed up (by heating just to vaporise the liquid inside, the mould is then filled and then heated to a slightly higher temperature. This causes the beads to puff up more and by expanding, slightly pressurise the mould, completely filling it. Enough heat is applied this time to make the beads sticky, so that they fuse together - but not so much that it melts completely.

AFAIK, the only 'recycled' plastic that might be involved would be in the manufacture of the beads (which would be very strictly quality controlled). Nothing else gets added.

One advantage of the process is that the mould tooling is (relatively) cheap compared to the high pressure injection process to make solid parts (like Airfix kits), where varying proportions of recycled/reworked material can be employed.

Animated schematic description http://www.bpf.co.uk/Plastipedia/Processes/Moulding_EPS.aspx



I wonder whether the Swienty/MB products are actually made by Structural Foam moulding, an entirely different process? http://www.bpf.co.uk/Plastipedia/Processes/Structural_Foam.aspx
One characteristic of Structural Foam is that it has a dense surface with a foam core, whereas Expanded Polystyrene moulding has the bead structure right to the outside - which we see as the speckled surface.
And yes you can mould PolyStyrene (PS) as a structural foam. Tooling is rather more expensive than EPS though.

 

[Winker]

They look very much like ejector pin marks to me - just going by the photos.

As one who was hoping to buy these things, I'm a bit disappointed.

Yeah I said the same to Mr Payne. He tells me they are all like that, if you look on his photos you can see its there too on the side under the wooden super. He offered me a Poly Repair kit, which I have excepted! But it sucks when you have to hand out repair kits to fix your brand new hive! Mr Payne tells me that he is going to call the factory today to see if this can be changed, so fingers crossed the next batch he gets may not have this flaw!

But other than that, it’s a really nice hive! Had it not been for the holes I would have given it a 10 out of 10.

Don't be put off by the holes if your going to buy one, maybe wait to see if the problem gets fixed first or ask for a free poly repair kit with every hive you buy. But to be fair I don't see why you should have to pay top dollar for a new bit of kit then have to repair it when it arrives.

 

[RoofTops]

ITMA - Swienty and MB hives are made by the same sort of process as the Paynes hives. However, molding high density EPS is not that easy - getting the pressures and temperatures correct is tricky. Most EPS made is low density for packaging and this is what the manufacturers have experience of. I suspect the manufacturer of the Paynes hives is going through a bit of a learning curve at the moment.

As for the cost of the tooling, it is not that cheap, even when made in China where most of it is - and where the Paynes tooling was probably made. I would be very surprised if the total cost of tooling for the Paynes hive was not well into 5 figures.

 

[drstitson]

Looking at a couple of bits of MB hive that i have beside my desk here (don't ask). Bog standard EPS (albeit very high density). also has very shallow marks like those on the Paynes hive (presume from extractor pins). HOWEVER, as the MB offering is flatpacked the circular depressions are on the faces not the edges so the problem highlighted does not arise.

believe it or not don't have a WPF nuc handy to check where the marks are on it but would judge that any open box like structure is best injected from the base and hence ejected from the top. The paynes hives therefore have limited positions for the placement of 2cm contact points on a flat surface.

 

[daveq]

As a newbie starting next year I am looking to purchase hives/equipment over winter.
I do like the poly hives from MB over the ones from paynes after reading the comments regarding holes/repairs/filler etc.
As regards compatability of the MB poly hives with wood parts etc I dont see this as a issue as I will be purchasing all new hives.
The only issue I have is what to go for.
What would you all recomend.
Langstroth with the jumbo brood.
Langstroth with standard brood.
Or national with standard brood as there in no 14x12.
Thanks.

 

[oliver90owner]

It is a relatively expensive option, but I, and others, have used two supers as a 14 x 12. Ideally, they need a small eke to make them compatible, if stacking onto another box - but that does not happen so often with 14 x 12s! I will cross that bridge if, and when, I come to it.

I simply screwed the two supers together and I have actually screw on the floor, too. I am checking out the operation with the one hive before making any more comittment.

All my kit is incompatible with most other National users as it is top bee space.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

following on from my previous post - having checked out a couple of poly mating nucs on my shelf - they have ejector pin marks on the base.

 

[DorsetB]

Just my 2c worth if it helps:

I have Paynes nucs, MB Jumbo Langstroth nucs, and Swienty JL hives.

The MB and Swienty products are both superb, and pass the "heavily propolised" test with flying colours when removing QEXs or roofs. They also recently passed the "put a piece of ply on top of a hive body then stand on it" test.

The Paynes nucs (and from the sound of what folks are saying the hives as well) are definitely more fragile and display the poly beads others mention when damaged, ie knocked or when removing a heavily propolised roof - I have found that this damage serves as a starting point for further fraying if you don't repair it.

The MB and Swienty products however can take quite severe knocks without breaking.

 

[drstitson]

The paynes nuc roofs are too thin to use without an inner clear plastic crownboard to stop propolis probs IMHO.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I think Paynes agree as well and supply as standard nowdays.

 

[drstitson]

shame Paynes can't reposition the nucs, pricewise, now they have the poly nationals available.

bit rich having to spend £37.50 for a 14x12 nuc (albeit with integral feeder) when a full hive is only £50 (at moment).

i bet a slight price reduction would see a massive increase in sales.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

perhaps wait for that christmas sale? 26th Dec ?

 

[oliver90owner]

bit rich having to spend £37.50 for a 14x12 nuc (albeit with integral feeder) when a full hive is only £50 (at moment).

Not quite comparing apples with apples here. The £50 (at the moment) buys a deep brood box hive only, so the 14 x 12 nuc is better value, size for size as you get a feeder, too (or cut out the feeder and insert another frame?). A 14 x 12 hive is near £58 before delivery.

RAB

 

[Poly Hive]

Hive in this instance being Floor Brood Box and Roof.

Bear in mind each of these items represents a five figure mould investment?

What is it with the cheapskate mind set of so many beekeepers?

I far prefer to pay more and buy quality and enjoy it than pay a pound less and spend hours moaning about it?

As for price comparison... sheesh it gets worse. From my preparations for the weekend here is the Polish comparison to a well known timber ware vendor based on the in the flat price, both ex UK.

National with Floor, BB, 1 x Supers and Roof. Timber: £128.16 Poly £72.80 and I'll even do the subtraction for you. £55-96 left in your pocket for a better hive. *no brainer eh?*

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

Seems expensive for the wooden hive in the flat,there is another big supplier that does one in the flat,but with two supers,all the frames,foundation,Q excluder, ect,for around £116

 

[drstitson]

with all the above BUT i'm sure that all those who secured the WPF poly nucs at the original £25 price were very happy with those purchases (once finally received).

 

[Nic Rhodes]

The Paynes Ekes are very useful, just tucked up two 'largish' mating hives inside Paynes poly nucs with extra Ekes to help them through the winter.

 

[oliver90owner]

Hive in this instance being Floor Brood Box and Roof.

This in itself is exasperating enough. I don't really call that a 'proper hive', even (quite sure that PH doesn't, either) - much better described as 'some basic components for a beehive'. Without at least a super purchased, begged, borrowed, stolen or made, a brood box is not much good for keeping those bees after about April each year! (OK, just good enough for a beek starting with a nuc!)

It is also noted on at least one website (recently) it was cheaper to buy some components separately instead of including them in a package. Buyers beware when comparing prices!

RAB