Partially full, partially capped, thin foundation

[Tiro Turbidus]

Hi. As a beginner, I'm looking for some advice. My two hives are in their first year and the frames in the supers (one super on each) have thin foundation in them, with a view to comb honey. Both colonies are doing well but the weather has changed (Northern Scotland: who knew?), the drones have been ejected, and both colonies have suddenly become somnolent. My initial intention had been to leave the supers on as winter stores but, acknowledging that many people take the opposite view, most advice seems to fall on the side that it's best to remove supers to over-winter. So I've done that and the colonies are now on syrup, later to be on fondant. That's the background. A few of the frames from the supers have drawn comb but nothing else (fine, I'll keep those to put on next year), other frames have a little uncapped honey in them, and others have a mix of uncapped and capped honey. Given that I can't extract the honey from the foundation, it seems to me that I should cut out and use what honey there is (capped and uncapped) and refill the frames with foundation for next year. Okay, with only a few frames, this is small beer, but it's a learning process. Is there any other, better, course of action that someone would recommend?

 

[Amari]

I would cut out the capped comb for consumption and nadir the super with remaining combs and uncapped honey beneath the brood box. Over winter the bees will move the honey up into the BB and in spring you can reverse the procedure and put the super above the BB.
Uncapped honey does not store well.

 

[Tiro Turbidus]

Thanks Amari, that is extremely helpful and makes perfect sense. I didn't realise that stores would be moved upwards into a brood box. 'Nadir' is a new word to me in the bee context, and isn't mentioned in anything that I've read. It should be. Having looked it up, I see that it's mostly used in relation to Warre hives, but the bees don't know or care what flavour of hive they're in.

 

[enrico]

The bees will always store honey from the top down, so if you move it down they will move it back up again. The brood is then laid in the spring at the first available space from the top. If they have eaten the honey the super at the bottom will now be empty. However if a mild winter then there may be brood in it. As the weather warms, with the queen definitely in the brood box, you can move the super with the brood back over a queen excluder and let the brood emerge.
Not always that simple but that is the theory behind it!
E

 

[Tiro Turbidus]

Thanks Enrico. It's weird how you can read so many books but still not get straightforward answers and clear explanations to relatively simple questions. Maybe the books just need to be better indexed (or better read).

 

[enrico]

No problem, sometimes you can never find what you are looking for! This is all to do with heat, heat rises and over the winter months they will start eating the honey from the coldest area, the bottom, so that as stores diminish they are getting closer to the top where the heat is. Likewise the brood will be layed in the warmest possible available area, as near the top as possible. Heat loss is reduced to the minimum. That is also why we now believe/know that if you insulate the roof you are doing the bees good by keeping the heat in. Many moons ago we used to think ventilation was the key but that thinking has changed, hence the reason for people using Polyhives etc. Make sure that there is no queen excluder present over winter and that the roof is well insulated. Feed well in the autumn and keep some fondant handy in case they run out of food and bobs your uncle!
E

 

[Amari]

Thanks Amari, that is extremely helpful and makes perfect sense. I didn't realise that stores would be moved upwards into a brood box. 'Nadir' is a new word to me in the bee context, and isn't mentioned in anything that I've read. It should be. Having looked it up, I see that it's mostly used in relation to Warre hives, but the bees don't know or care what flavour of hive they're in.

Yes, the on-line Oxford English Dictionary only gives 'nadir' as a noun. I have been on the forum about six years and have the vague feeling that it became used on the forum as a verb about four years ago (I haven't time at the moment to scroll through all previous mentions but early on it was used as a noun:

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=167611&postcount=5

BTW, in your OP you say you understand it's bad to leave supers on overwinter. I don't think this is the case - but realise your climate may be different. I now overwinter strong colonies on double brood but previously I would feed syrup into the super in September the nadir it in October. By spring this 'shallow' was empty and could be returned above the BB. I don't like feeding into a super and leave it above the BB overwinter because it's likely that some syrup will remain in the super and contaminate the spring flow of sugar. Remove QX in winter in all circumstances as stated above.

 

[Swarm]

Do remember that if you find brood in your shallow frames, they are no good for comb honey afterwards.
Uncapped nectar can be washed out of the cells in a water bath, unless the frames are quite full this would probably be your easiest option.

 

[enrico]

Do remember that if you find brood in your shallow frames, they are no good for comb honey afterwards.
Uncapped nectar can be washed out of the cells in a water bath, unless the frames are quite full this would probably be your easiest option.

Sorry but I don't believe that. You can use frames used for brood for honey. No problem
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry but I don't believe that. You can use frames used for brood for honey. No problem
E

It won't look very appetising for cut comb though (which is what Steve said) - and probably more than a bit chewy

 

[Beefriendly]

It won't look very appetising for cut comb though (which is what Steve said) - and probably more than a bit chewy

When it's capped over with those lovely nice white Amm cappings it will look just like any other bit of cut-comb. No-one will suspect what was in there before.

 

[Tiro Turbidus]

Thanks Everyone

Lots of nuances here but there's a rationale running through it all and I can proceed with some confidence. As they say in writing: I've taken advice but any mistakes are my own.

 

[Frizzaldo]

if you put the super with the few frames of uncapped honey above a feeder board (feeder board between brood box and super) the bees will empty them.