Paradise or abelo poly national.

[Boston Bees]

I thought I might order a couple more Abelo roofs despite their price increase, I was horrified to find they've gone up again and are now £36 for painted.
Nice roofs but not at that price.

Problem is ... every manufacturer of every type of hive, regardless of material, has ramped prices up in the same way.

Poly is much more expensive than it was, but manages to be still much cheaper than (new, 1st quality) wood. Tis the way of the world currently, sadly.

 

[Swarm]

Sadly. These were £25 at first, then £30, then £33 and now £36.

 

[Boston Bees]

Sadly. These were £25 at first, then £30, then £33 and now £36.

Yep.

Blimey - just spotted that a 6" wooden roof is £89 at one leading supplier. £89 .......

 

[Curly green finger's]

Paid £29 for Apideas each just recently

 

[Newbeeneil]

I thought I might order a couple more Abelo roofs despite their price increase, I was horrified to find they've gone up again and are now £36 for painted.
Nice roofs but not at that price.

A full price cedar roof is £55 from Thornes! Makes the Abelo one sound cheap.

 

[Boston Bees]

A full price cedar roof is £55 from Thornes! Makes the Abelo one sound cheap.

That's if you don't mind building it. Like for like, Thornes is £89

 

[boywonder]

About 12 months ago, I lost patience with some of what I perceived to be the petty, cliquey comings and goings on the Forum and - probably after a few beers - blew my stack, had a bit of a rant in an ill-advised post, and vowed never to darken the doors of the Forum again. To anybody I offended (not that anyone will remember, I'm sure) - sincere apologies...... but, as you'll gather, I am back - basically because this really is the 'go-to' place for beekeeping discussion, and some things just need to be aired to a wider audience.

So, to the question of Abelo vs. Paradise ... I myself run a number of 14*12 Abelo (original design) poly hives with deep roofs, and have done for 3 or 4 years now. I am wildly delighted with them. I've never had any problem with water ingress, and I like, amongst other things:
- the quality of the boxes (density etc) and the floor
- the simplicity (e.g. fact there is no assembly, and the fact they come pre-painted)
- the hard plastic edges and runners
- the 100% compatibility with all my wooden kit (including crown boards, Queen excluders etc...)

The last point is very important (to me at least). I would go so far as to say these are almost perfect hives; the only one (extremely minor) downside being the silly faffery with the 5 loose-fitting polystyrene 'caps' which sit over the crownboard vents. Unnecessary. I should really tape them down, but I don't want to glue them in, as the holes accommodating the vents are pretty useful for feeding.

Anyhow, to Paradise, and the reason I feel compelled to post, and to seek comments...

I do not own any of these, but have recently needed to get to grips with them, when helping out a member of our Association who has one. Well...

Verdict - dog turd. Avoid.

So the first observation is that I personally don't like the 'rim'/rebate - i.e. the way the boxes interlock. I do not get the sense it makes the unit any more secure/stable, but, more fundamentally, it means that the hive is not compatible in any meaningful way with ANY standard boxes or boards. My main beef is the boards. Let me explain.

Paradise are Top Bee Space hives. In itself, I like that (TBS) ... much more civilised. However, a complete hive (as supplied by Modern Beekeeping) comes with a flimsy plastic, slotted QX. Obviously, this sags in the middle, which compromises the bee space, and is generally unfit for purpose. So you then want to buy a good old wired, framed QX, but .... it doesn't 'marry' with the interlocking boxes. Aaaargh.

As supplied, a complete hive does not come with any kind of crownboard. I do believe these used to come with a flexible clear polycarbonate 'board' (like you can get with e.g. Paynes nucs), but Modern Beekeeping say that a crownboard is not required in this design (i.e. on the basis that the roof can just sit directly over the top box). Tosh. The roof is not flat on the underside. It has what is best described as a "well" or "recess" in the central area. This means that the bees have too much space (over the top of the beespace above), which they are liable to fill with burr comb.

That was my gut feeling, and, hey, it happened:



So you DO need a crownboard, but, much like the QX, a standard national CB doesn't 'marry' with the interlocking boxes. Double Aaaargh.

So to the floor design. Again, this also has a kind of "well" or "recess" in the central area, which (over and above the standard half-inch or so 'rim' which gives the bees more-than adequate space the traverse the floor anyway) creates an excessively large void beneath the frames, which ... you've guessed it ... the bees are apt to fill with burr comb. See below (and triple Aaaargh):





And then you've got the internal dimensions of the boxes themselves (super and brood), which take 10 Hoffman frames (no more, you can't squeeze an 11th in - I mean, 10 frames - come on lads!), but in doing so, leave a blooming excessive gap between the last frame and the hive wall (see first photo). So large, in fact, that the bees will certainly draw brace comb here, and stick the frame to the wall of the hive. Obviously, in the brood box, the standard mitigation is going to be using a dummy board, but in the supers, the only way to mitigate this is by ditching the Hoffman spacing (and either manually spacing by eye, or possibly using wide ends).

So in summary - unless somebody tells me I am wrong (happy to learn), the Paradise hives have an ill considered design in respect of bee space. They have too much space in all directions, and bees are therefore going to fill/gum the boxes up with brace/burr comb in every which way. In fact, why not save the money, and get an empty polystyrene box from your local fishmonger, chuck the bees in that, and let them crack on. The results would probably be similar ... Make sure you give it a good wash first.

Comments please, people !

Thanks.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Hi boywonder, great to see you back.

the only one (extremely minor) downside being the silly faffery with the 5 loose-fitting polystyrene 'caps' which sit over the crownboard vents. Unnecessary. I should really tape them down, but I don't want to glue them in, as the holes accommodating the vents are pretty useful for feeding.

I purchased 5 of Abelo hives for a client of mine and was extremely impressed except for the above point. Crap idea as if you want to use an english feeder the lip on the 'caps' prevents a flush fit. In the end I trimmed all but the centre cap and fitted them flush gluing them in position with silicone mastic. Worked fine after that.

 

[mbc]

About 12 months ago, I lost patience with some of what I perceived to be the petty, cliquey comings and goings on the Forum and - probably after a few beers - blew my stack, had a bit of a rant in an ill-advised post, and vowed never to darken the doors of the Forum again. To anybody I offended (not that anyone will remember, I'm sure) - sincere apologies...... but, as you'll gather, I am back - basically because this really is the 'go-to' place for beekeeping discussion, and some things just need to be aired to a wider audience.

So, to the question of Abelo vs. Paradise ... I myself run a number of 14*12 Abelo (original design) poly hives with deep roofs, and have done for 3 or 4 years now. I am wildly delighted with them. I've never had any problem with water ingress, and I like, amongst other things:
- the quality of the boxes (density etc) and the floor
- the simplicity (e.g. fact there is no assembly, and the fact they come pre-painted)
- the hard plastic edges and runners
- the 100% compatibility with all my wooden kit (including crown boards, Queen excluders etc...)

The last point is very important (to me at least). I would go so far as to say these are almost perfect hives; the only one (extremely minor) downside being the silly faffery with the 5 loose-fitting polystyrene 'caps' which sit over the crownboard vents. Unnecessary. I should really tape them down, but I don't want to glue them in, as the holes accommodating the vents are pretty useful for feeding.

Anyhow, to Paradise, and the reason I feel compelled to post, and to seek comments...

I do not own any of these, but have recently needed to get to grips with them, when helping out a member of our Association who has one. Well...

Verdict - dog turd. Avoid.

So the first observation is that I personally don't like the 'rim'/rebate - i.e. the way the boxes interlock. I do not get the sense it makes the unit any more secure/stable, but, more fundamentally, it means that the hive is not compatible in any meaningful way with ANY standard boxes or boards. My main beef is the boards. Let me explain.

Paradise are Top Bee Space hives. In itself, I like that (TBS) ... much more civilised. However, a complete hive (as supplied by Modern Beekeeping) comes with a flimsy plastic, slotted QX. Obviously, this sags in the middle, which compromises the bee space, and is generally unfit for purpose. So you then want to buy a good old wired, framed QX, but .... it doesn't 'marry' with the interlocking boxes. Aaaargh.

As supplied, a complete hive does not come with any kind of crownboard. I do believe these used to come with a flexible clear polycarbonate 'board' (like you can get with e.g. Paynes nucs), but Modern Beekeeping say that a crownboard is not required in this design (i.e. on the basis that the roof can just sit directly over the top box). Tosh. The roof is not flat on the underside. It has what is best described as a "well" or "recess" in the central area. This means that the bees have too much space (over the top of the beespace above), which they are liable to fill with burr comb.

That was my gut feeling, and, hey, it happened:

View attachment 32215

So you DO need a crownboard, but, much like the QX, a standard national CB doesn't 'marry' with the interlocking boxes. Double Aaaargh.

So to the floor design. Again, this also has a kind of "well" or "recess" in the central area, which (over and above the standard half-inch or so 'rim' which gives the bees more-than adequate space the traverse the floor anyway) creates an excessively large void beneath the frames, which ... you've guessed it ... the bees are apt to fill with burr comb. See below (and triple Aaaargh):

View attachment 32216

View attachment 32217

And then you've got the internal dimensions of the boxes themselves (super and brood), which take 10 Hoffman frames (no more, you can't squeeze an 11th in - I mean, 10 frames - come on lads!), but in doing so, leave a blooming excessive gap between the last frame and the hive wall (see first photo). So large, in fact, that the bees will certainly draw brace comb here, and stick the frame to the wall of the hive. Obviously, in the brood box, the standard mitigation is going to be using a dummy board, but in the supers, the only way to mitigate this is by ditching the Hoffman spacing (and either manually spacing by eye, or possibly using wide ends).

So in summary - unless somebody tells me I am wrong (happy to learn), the Paradise hives have an ill considered design in respect of bee space. They have too much space in all directions, and bees are therefore going to fill/gum the boxes up with brace/burr comb in every which way. In fact, why not save the money, and get an empty polystyrene box from your local fishmonger, chuck the bees in that, and let them crack on. The results would probably be similar ... Make sure you give it a good wash first.

Comments please, people !

Thanks.

I tried one which I sold on pdq as the the frame ends seemed pinched by the sides and difficult to slide, and the overlap on the boxes squish bees when reassembling.

 

[boywonder]

Hi boywonder, great to see you back.



I purchased 5 of Abelo hives for a client of mine and was extremely impressed except for the above point. Crap idea as if you want to use an english feeder the lip on the 'caps' prevents a flush fit. In the end I trimmed all but the centre cap and fitted them flush gluing them in position with silicone mastic. Worked fine after that.

Hi Neil - good to be back. I have the same problem with the English Feeders vs. Abelo boards. Generally, these are in use in Autumn, when it's still broadly warm enough for me not to get too stressed about removing the four outer caps, and opening up the central hole. Otherwise, as you indicate, this - i.e. getting the English Feeder to sit flush with the board - is a royal PITA (which you have solved your own way )

I guess the wider point about the benefits of the Abelo is that you could just ditch the supplied board, and replace it (even temporarily) with a wooden crown board/feeder board for the same purpose.

I know you shouldn't have to, but I think that again points to a weakness in the Paradise design - i.e. compatibility.

 

[Boston Bees]

Paradise - agreed

Abelo old-style (non-lip) - they are excellent, but I don't like the ease in which the components slide out of position, due to the smooth plastic surfaces, and water ingress does happen. But despite that, if I wanted to use national hives, I would still plump for the Abelo.

 

[boywonder]

@Boston Bees - I see a little slippage (with the hard plastic to hard plastic interface between the 'old-style' Abelo boxes) - for sure ... but even then, and however they do it, the bees seem to propolise the interface to the extent that a) the slipping ceases to be a problem, and b) certainly, therefore, in comparison to a design (like Paradise) where there is an inbuilt rebate ... I would not notice a difference in the stability of the stack (i.e. neither a good push nor a strong gust of wind would dislodge the boxes)

But yes - certainly when clean, there is slippage

 

[Erichalfbee]

About 12 months ago, I lost patience with some of what I perceived to be the petty, cliquey comings and goings on the Forum and - probably after a few beers - blew my stack, had a bit of a rant in an ill-advised post, and vowed never to darken the doors of the Forum again.

Thanks.

Welcome back. I’m glad you’ve found our door again.
Like most places there’s good and bad and you know which threads become contentious and are best avoided.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hi Neil - good to be back. I have the same problem with the English Feeders vs. Abelo boards. Generally, these are in use in Autumn, when it's still broadly warm enough for me not to get too stressed about removing the four outer caps, and opening up the central hole. Otherwise, as you indicate, this - i.e. getting the English Feeder to sit flush with the board - is a royal PITA (which you have solved your own way )

I guess the wider point about the benefits of the Abelo is that you could just ditch the supplied board, and replace it (even temporarily) with a wooden crown board/feeder board for the same purpose.

I know you shouldn't have to, but I think that again points to a weakness in the Paradise design - i.e. compatibility.

I stuck the outer 4 discs down with two dabs of silicon and a round rapid feeder sits nicely in between them when required. Having said that I have moved onto using eccentric clear crown boards with just a 30mm hole in the centre, normally kept covered except for feeding time. The eccentric clear crown board enables it to be flipped to give space for an apiguard tray if that is your preferred treatment for varroa or when in it's normal upright position the deep recess hold a sheet of insulation. I cut a gap for a tray of fondant or simply fill the gap in winter for extra heat retention under the deep poly roof.

 

[SWEET]

Simple solution, don't buy the crown board and use the feeder instead.

My Abelo combo -

Nat double setup - V1 brood/roof (also used as supers) , V2 floor + Feeder
Boxes have a slot cut into them so water drains away, no issues.

All good.

 

[blackcloud]

Only my nucs are poly and I'm so damn glad.

Do these manufacturers need their heads banging together or is it us beekeepers?
Modifying a popular 100yr old hive design will probably involve compromises,but all these companies started with a reasonably clean design brief.
There should be no issues like posted here.
There's a chronological century and a millennium of personal experience available.
It should be right first time.
We should not have to be faffing like that.
But we do ,and continue to invest in these errors- so some of this debacle is on us.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Only my nucs are poly and I'm so damn glad.

Do these manufacturers need their heads banging together or is it us beekeepers?
Modifying a popular 100yr old hive design will probably involve compromises,but all these companies started with a reasonably clean design brief.
There should be no issues like posted here.
There's a chronological century and a millennium of personal experience available.
It should be right first time.
We should not have to be faffing like that.
But we do ,and continue to invest in these errors- so some of this debacle is on us.

I agree.
The workshop hoops I had to jump through to get 14x12 top space poly in 2008 !
I’ve cracked it fairly easily now but still need a minor tweak.

 

[steve1958]

I purchased the new version last month and moved my bees into it two weeks ago.
Sadly the gentle colony I moved into the Lyson hive became agitated and angry within those two weeks.
I believe this is partly down to me the beekeeper but also partly down to the design of the hive.
The rebate around the top and bottom of the hive is meant to help prevent water getting in and help hold the hive parts together.
However it is also responsible for bees getting crushed each time you put the hive back together as its nearly impossible to clear the bees from the top of the boxes and unlike other hives you can't gentle slide parts together.
Each time bees get crushed the colony gets agitated. And with 4 supers that's a lot of crushing.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I purchased the new version last month and moved my bees into it two weeks ago.
Sadly the gentle colony I moved into the Lyson hive became agitated and angry within those two weeks.
I believe this is partly down to me the beekeeper but also partly down to the design of the hive.
The rebate around the top and bottom of the hive is meant to help prevent water getting in and help hold the hive parts together.
However it is also responsible for bees getting crushed each time you put the hive back together as its nearly impossible to clear the bees from the top of the boxes and unlike other hives you can't gentle slide parts together.
Each time bees get crushed the colony gets agitated. And with 4 supers that's a lot of crushing.

I must take a trip over to visit Damien again and see what you are talking about. I have handled one of the Lyson National early 11 frame shallow roof/crownboards which sit on top of standard flat joint supers. Are you suggesting the floor, brood box and supers all have rebates on the 12 frame hives?

 

[Boston Bees]

I must take a trip over to visit Damien again and see what you are talking about. I have handled one of the Lyson National early 11 frame shallow roof/crownboards which sit on top of standard flat joint supers. Are you suggesting the floor, brood box and supers all have rebates on the 12 frame hives?

With this interweb thingy you can look at the pictures online and save yourself the trip!

12 Frame National Poly Hive - Welcome to Abelo's Beekeeping Supplies