Paradise or abelo poly national.

[ericbeaumont]

Are you suggesting the floor, brood box and supers all have rebates on the 12 frame hives?

The 11-frame Abelo replicates the wood BS National design with flat rims; the 12-frame Abelo has a larger footprint, top beespace and raised rims to lock parts. The two are not interchangeable and I'm curious to know what drove Abelo to produce it, given that a 12th frame is of such little benefit and the market is already fragmented.

we do ,and continue to invest in these errors- so some of this debacle is on us.

The 12-frame seems to attract beginners who may be unaware that they will lock themselves into that unique design.

Universal compatibility was the aim of the British Standard 1300 introduced in 1946, polished in 1960 and unchanged since, but nonetheless little UK poly companies (Abelo excepted) ignore the common-sense of compatibility and so cut themselves out of the entire market.

ditch the supplied board

Don't buy it (or an English feeder, £10-16).

The CB is £26.60 and the Ashforth feeder £42.40. The Ashforth will act as a syrup feeder, fondant feeder (turn it over) and crownboard, so keep it on all year and save labour and storage. It can even act as a split board if you're running short of kit.

I picked up the idea of using a poly feeder all year from Murray McGregor and it works well. Laurence at Black Mountain Honey uses it and may have suggested the idea to Abelo, because they now sell a hive package with box feeder and no CB.

 

[SWEET]

^^ the BS Poly Hive crown board is basically a feeder, great hive and looking forward to production being fired-up again at some point. Abelo (I assume) matched that hive with their feeder combo hive.

 

[user 20297]

The 11-frame Abelo replicates the wood BS National design with flat rims; the 12-frame Abelo has a larger footprint, top beespace and raised rims to lock parts. The two are not interchangeable and I'm curious to know what drove Abelo to produce it, given that a 12th frame is of such little benefit and the market is already fragmented.


The 12-frame seems to attract beginners who may be unaware that they will lock themselves into that unique design.

Universal compatibility was the aim of the British Standard 1300 introduced in 1946, polished in 1960 and unchanged since, but nonetheless little UK poly companies (Abelo excepted) ignore the common-sense of compatibility and so cut themselves out of the entire market.

Don't buy it (or an English feeder, £10-16).

The CB is £26.60 and the Ashforth feeder £42.40. The Ashforth will act as a syrup feeder, fondant feeder (turn it over) and crownboard, so keep it on all year and save labour and storage. It can even act as a split board if you're running short of kit.

I picked up the idea of using a poly feeder all year from Murray McGregor and it works well. Laurence at Black Mountain Honey uses it and may have suggested the idea to Abelo, because they now sell a hive package with box feeder and no CB.

I'm pleased that I quickly cottoned on to Abelo hives. Weird that they have one of the best and possibly the worst designs around.
I assume the 12 frame hive has double the squashed bee risk of the similarly designed, 6 frame nuc. It's handy that nucs interlock, as you're quite likely to move them regularly, but on a full hive I suspect it's a great hindrance.

 

[Boston Bees]

I assume the 12 frame hive has double the squashed bee risk of the similarly designed, 6 frame nuc.

Given that there are twice as many frames, thus half as many boxes required as with the nuc, I am not sure about your risk-per-bee maths there Beebe

 

[Gilberdyke John]

The 11-frame Abelo replicates the wood BS National design with flat rims; the 12-frame Abelo has a larger footprint, top beespace and raised rims to lock parts. The two are not interchangeable and I'm curious to know what drove Abelo to produce it, given that a 12th frame is of such little benefit and the market is already fragmented.


The 12-frame seems to attract beginners who may be unaware that they will lock themselves into that unique design.

Universal compatibility was the aim of the British Standard 1300 introduced in 1946, polished in 1960 and unchanged since, but nonetheless little UK poly companies (Abelo excepted) ignore the common-sense of compatibility and so cut themselves out of the entire market.

Don't buy it (or an English feeder, £10-16).

The CB is £26.60 and the Ashforth feeder £42.40. The Ashforth will act as a syrup feeder, fondant feeder (turn it over) and crownboard, so keep it on all year and save labour and storage. It can even act as a split board if you're running short of kit.

I picked up the idea of using a poly feeder all year from Murray McGregor and it works well. Laurence at Black Mountain Honey uses it and may have suggested the idea to Abelo, because they now sell a hive package with box feeder and no CB.

Thanks for your post Eric. I've been using the standard Abelo 11 frame poly national happily for some time. During lockdown I ordered another which was delivered with the "short toe" base and short crownbord roof which has a flat face to sit on the box below. It does mean that particular roof/crownboard have to stay together but it's not a serious problem and standard boxes remain compatible. I agree that moving away from standard boxes is a retrograde step but the Mk1 hives remain available so IF/until they are phased out I'll stick with what I know and like.

 

[user 20297]

Given that there are twice as many frames, thus half as many boxes required as with the nuc, I am not sure about your risk-per-bee maths there Beebe

Given that the number of bees in a full and thriving hive is likely to be more than double that of a nuc-box that is being used to bring on a colony, despite the fact that the box perimeter on a full hive is only 30% greater than that on the nuc box, there's a significantly greater chance of squashing bees. That applies whether adding a box or placing the crownboard.
If you can do that maths and give us a more considered and accurate estimation of the change in risk, I'm sure that will make no difference to the bees.

 

[Boston Bees]

Given that the number of bees in a full and thriving hive is likely to be more than double that of a nuc-box that is being used to bring on a colony, despite the fact that the box perimeter on a full hive is only 30% greater than that on the nuc box, there's a significantly greater chance of squashing bees. That applies whether adding a box or placing the crownboard.
If you can do that maths and give us a more considered and accurate estimation of the change in risk, I'm sure that will make no difference to the bees.

Ahh, if you simply meant that there's less crushing risk with a 6 frame nuc than a 12 frame brood box, fair enough, that seems unarguable.

I use these 6 frame nucs as full size hives, personally, by extending them vertically

 

[steve1958]

I just know that several Bees were squashed because of this design.
The bees definitely weren't happy about this, and as a Bee Carer I was left disappointed.
I was planning on buying 6 new hives, but since using this one I will be looking elsewhere.

 

[GlenJ]

Ahh, if you simply meant that there's less crushing risk with a 6 frame nuc than a 12 frame brood box, fair enough, that seems unarguable.

I use these 6 frame nucs as full size hives, personally, by extending them vertically

It's also a lot easier to lower a nuc box slowly to give the suicidal ones a chance. A kind of progressive squeeze and release.

 

[Bluebell1985]

So I use the abelo hives and have found that some bees are crushed. I now take to smoking them as I'm about to replace a box. The ones that remain generally move if I slowly lower down the box, hovering briefly before it goes down fully into position.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I use the abelo hives and have found that some bees are crushed

12-frame with the locking lip?

 

[Bluebell1985]

12-frame with the locking lip?

Yes. I also put the edge farthest away from me down first so I can see what bees are where when I'm lowering it.

 

[ericbeaumont]

planning on buying 6 new hives, but since using this one I will be looking elsewhere

This constructive feedback ought to go to Abelo.

Stick with their 11-frame with the old roof (buy an Ashforth instead of the CB) or the 11-frame, old roof and Ashforth package, and you'll be satisfied.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This constructive feedback ought to go to Abelo.

Stick with their 11-frame with the old roof (buy an Ashforth instead of the CB) or the 11-frame, old roof and Ashforth package, and you'll be satisfied.

One of the attractions was top space.
An easy way to do that is to glue/screw a plastic bee space rim to the top of the old 11 frame boxes which is what I’ve done.

 

[alancooper]

One of the attractions was top space.
An easy way to do that is to glue/screw a plastic bee space rim to the top of the old 11 frame boxes which is what I’ve done.

What is your plastic bee space rim? Do you make or by?

 

[Boston Bees]

One of the attractions was top space.
An easy way to do that is to glue/screw a plastic bee space rim to the top of the old 11 frame boxes which is what I’ve done.

Don't you just end up with double bee space when these boxes are stacked on each other?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Don't you just end up with double bee space when these boxes are stacked on each other?

Sorry I meant brood boxes and I don’t stack them. Wooden supers are top space and poly ones are Swienty without runners.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What is your plastic bee space rim? Do you make or by?

I buy those plastic shims they use round upvc windows from a local double glazing firm. They are 8mm and cheap as chips.

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

About 12 months ago, I lost patience with some of what I perceived to be the petty, cliquey comings and goings on the Forum and - probably after a few beers - blew my stack, had a bit of a rant in an ill-advised post, and vowed never to darken the doors of the Forum again. To anybody I offended (not that anyone will remember, I'm sure) - sincere apologies...... but, as you'll gather, I am back - basically because this really is the 'go-to' place for beekeeping discussion, and some things just need to be aired to a wider audience.

So, to the question of Abelo vs. Paradise ... I myself run a number of 14*12 Abelo (original design) poly hives with deep roofs, and have done for 3 or 4 years now. I am wildly delighted with them. I've never had any problem with water ingress, and I like, amongst other things:
- the quality of the boxes (density etc) and the floor
- the simplicity (e.g. fact there is no assembly, and the fact they come pre-painted)
- the hard plastic edges and runners
- the 100% compatibility with all my wooden kit (including crown boards, Queen excluders etc...)

The last point is very important (to me at least). I would go so far as to say these are almost perfect hives; the only one (extremely minor) downside being the silly faffery with the 5 loose-fitting polystyrene 'caps' which sit over the crownboard vents. Unnecessary. I should really tape them down, but I don't want to glue them in, as the holes accommodating the vents are pretty useful for feeding.

Anyhow, to Paradise, and the reason I feel compelled to post, and to seek comments...

I do not own any of these, but have recently needed to get to grips with them, when helping out a member of our Association who has one. Well...

Verdict - dog turd. Avoid.

So the first observation is that I personally don't like the 'rim'/rebate - i.e. the way the boxes interlock. I do not get the sense it makes the unit any more secure/stable, but, more fundamentally, it means that the hive is not compatible in any meaningful way with ANY standard boxes or boards. My main beef is the boards. Let me explain.

Paradise are Top Bee Space hives. In itself, I like that (TBS) ... much more civilised. However, a complete hive (as supplied by Modern Beekeeping) comes with a flimsy plastic, slotted QX. Obviously, this sags in the middle, which compromises the bee space, and is generally unfit for purpose. So you then want to buy a good old wired, framed QX, but .... it doesn't 'marry' with the interlocking boxes. Aaaargh.

As supplied, a complete hive does not come with any kind of crownboard. I do believe these used to come with a flexible clear polycarbonate 'board' (like you can get with e.g. Paynes nucs), but Modern Beekeeping say that a crownboard is not required in this design (i.e. on the basis that the roof can just sit directly over the top box). Tosh. The roof is not flat on the underside. It has what is best described as a "well" or "recess" in the central area. This means that the bees have too much space (over the top of the beespace above), which they are liable to fill with burr comb.

That was my gut feeling, and, hey, it happened:

View attachment 32215

So you DO need a crownboard, but, much like the QX, a standard national CB doesn't 'marry' with the interlocking boxes. Double Aaaargh.

So to the floor design. Again, this also has a kind of "well" or "recess" in the central area, which (over and above the standard half-inch or so 'rim' which gives the bees more-than adequate space the traverse the floor anyway) creates an excessively large void beneath the frames, which ... you've guessed it ... the bees are apt to fill with burr comb. See below (and triple Aaaargh):

View attachment 32216

View attachment 32217

And then you've got the internal dimensions of the boxes themselves (super and brood), which take 10 Hoffman frames (no more, you can't squeeze an 11th in - I mean, 10 frames - come on lads!), but in doing so, leave a blooming excessive gap between the last frame and the hive wall (see first photo). So large, in fact, that the bees will certainly draw brace comb here, and stick the frame to the wall of the hive. Obviously, in the brood box, the standard mitigation is going to be using a dummy board, but in the supers, the only way to mitigate this is by ditching the Hoffman spacing (and either manually spacing by eye, or possibly using wide ends).

So in summary - unless somebody tells me I am wrong (happy to learn), the Paradise hives have an ill considered design in respect of bee space. They have too much space in all directions, and bees are therefore going to fill/gum the boxes up with brace/burr comb in every which way. In fact, why not save the money, and get an empty polystyrene box from your local fishmonger, chuck the bees in that, and let them crack on. The results would probably be similar ... Make sure you give it a good wash first.

Comments please, people !

Thanks.

plastic castellations are available for the paradise supers

 

[Swn58]

I use both Paradise and Abelo. I bought 15 Paradise first and have always had problems with crushing bees, especially if they get a bit frantic when being inspected etc.. I have 12 Abelo's, that are not so bad for that I find, though it still happens. I usually attempt to brush away any 'suicide bees' before closing things up.
Generally I prefer the the 12 frame Abello's. It may be just me, but the bees seem to love them! One of the best features to me, is the crown-boards, which are so versatile. Why Paradise do not produce custom crown-boards is a mystery to me. I found that both makes cause the bees to expand rapidly. It is quite incredible. The downside with Paradise is the bees building comb above either the brood-box or super, attaching to the roof. It leads to broken comb and often a flood of honey into the depths of the hive; NOT pleasant! I had to make Correx boards to prevent this.
After a year of side by side comparison, Abelo wins hands down for me.