Oxalic trickling losses after treatments

[Finman]

just because bees are alive after oa treatment doesn't mean that they would be dead if you didn't use it.
E

Holy ship

 

[victor meldrew]

I use oxalic acid and it kills varroa for sure ,the evidence is in the monitoring tray
I prefer to use the gentler thymol based treatments plus of course all the other aspects of integrated pest management!
I do however reserve it for when the vagaries of the British late Summer/Autumn prevent thymol based treatment .
VM

 

[Dishmop]

granpa gets granmom
echo goes over lovely Finnish motherland

perhaps they need OA.

 

[Finman]

perhaps they need OA.

Before or after

 

[Dishmop]

Before or after

dont know. Never used it.

 

[johna]

The purpose for using OA treatment in winter is to kill the PHORETIC mites - that is mites that are NOT in the cells feedind off the larva. Because the winter is a BROODLESS period the mites can only parisitize the ADULT bees. This makes the mites vulnerable to OA treatment which kills most of them. The reduction of adult mites means that in the spring- when the Q starts to lay strongly , the mite population is reduced to a level that will not harm the colony and which will take quite a time to build dangerous mite populations. Thymol treatment in the autumn is very hit and miss as a cool or cold autumn will prevent propper evaporation of the thymol and will therefore have a minimum effect on varroa.The only treatment of mites in sealed cells is formic acid which can have a marked bad effect on the queen.
I have used OA treatment on my bees for years and have no record of colony loss due to the acid. I have lost colonies due to isolation starvation or queenlessness due to poor mating.I am a strong advocate of OA treatment and commend Finman on his steadfast stance. Incidentaly I have now successfully kept bees for over 40 years.

 

[Dishmop]

I have used OA treatment on my bees for years and have no record of colony loss due to the acid. I have lost colonies due to isolation starvation or queenlessness due to poor mating.I am a strong advocate of OA treatment and commend Finman on his steadfast stance. Incidentaly I have now successfully kept bees for over 40 years

but do you have any record of colonies loss because you didnt treat with OA.?

 

[Finman]

but do you have any record of colonies loss because you didnt treat with OA.?

Totally stupid idea. Just stupid-
.

I can tell that here 2 years ago experienced beekeepers lost huge amount of hives. One 150 hive owners lost every single hive.

And what was the problem?

Winter came very early and it was half metre snow on hive roofs when beekeepers should treat their hives. So they could not treat the hives. We waited mild weathers that snow melts aways but that did not happen. Next winter guys has exceptionally big losses.

I wonder Dishmop, how you with your tiny experinces can keep on you fight against the best varroa treament method. From where you get those muscles on your crusade.

Oxalic acid treatment saves hives. That is why it has been invented. No one does it for fun.
Mostly varroa only reduces the size of winter cluster and weakens honey yield. I have lost tens of hives
to varroa and more varroa has reduced my colony sizes.

The biggest loss I met 2003 when I had apistan resistant mites and I lost 60% of my yard. But thanks to that catastrophe I started to use electrict heating in spring even if I had known the method 40 years.

During few years I have had quite much losses because I only used OA. Gradually I found that it does not work that way. I need August treatment too to save wintering bee brood.



But Dishmop, I wonder you on your crusade "to keep bees healthy". Oliver is the same caliber. Why?
.

 

[johna]

Dishmop, I've treated EVERY year that varroa has been endemic in this district of Scotland and yes I do record any losses. As i said in my previous post-.my losses have been for the reasons stated. The decision to use or not to use ANY treatment is yours alone and I would not attempt to change your mind. But I ask is your reasoning knowledge based ?.

 

[Finman]

but do you have any record of colonies loss because you didnt treat with OA.?

If you mind to look Canadian hive losses, they has been huge. They have not CCD. Transition from Apistan to Formic acid has added the losses.

Even if thymol and formic acid are said to be 96% effective, it is not allways so. The results vary from 96 t0 70%.

If you have in Autumn 1000 mites, 4 % living mites means 40 mites. And it is is too much for next autumn.

If the efficacy is 70%, living mites will be after trestment 300 mites.

You must have under 10 mites after winter that they do not propagate themselves to 1000 mites' critical level.

So, if you get away 50 mites in January, it means 6000 mites in next September.

.

.
Dishmop, you have read the results what guys get from trickling. They are huge sometimes and sometimes autumn treatment has been effective.

.
If the result is 50 mites, we can look what happend when mites double them self in every month.

February 50
March....100
Ap.........200
May.......400 critical
June......800
July........1600
August....3 000
Sept-----6 000

. So when winter bees have reared, mite load is 6 time over critical.

.

 

[Finman]

.
When Guys here tell that they have never lost their hives... Yes I know many those guys in Finland too

But How experienced professionals do this way in Canada:


most of the bee keepers in New Brunswick,
the winter and spring of 2008 was much better for colony
survival than 2007. Average loss for
the province was about 30% compared
to 61% for the year before. In 2007
some beekeepers experienced losses
of 60-80 percent with some at 100
percent

 

[johna]

Finmans mite figures are correct and KNOWLEDGE based - not some hypothetical imaginary theory. Varroa is THE most serious pest that threatens honeybees and EVERYTHING possible should be done to eraiicate it at every possiuble opportunity.

 

[Dishmop]

Totally stupid idea. Just stupid-

Why stupid?

Sod all to do with how many hives or how long you or me have been keeping bees.

Evidence shows that colonies DO NOT DIE if they have not been treated with OA. I have no crusade with or without Rab or against you or anybody else regarding the use of OA or any other treatment and "to keep bees healthy". We're saying that we dont use it just because other people do. I dont care if you use it or not, but dont tell me that me bees will die if I dont..because I dont and they havent.

What I am saying is that there is no evidence that because colonies are treated with OA and do not die, DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE STILL ALIVE BECAUSE THEY WERE TREATED WITH OA. Simple really.

There is plenty of evidence that bees do not die if not treated, which outweighs most evidence that they will die if not treated.

I dont treat and mine didnt die. Rab doesnt treat and his havent died, and there are others. Therefore the fact that yours or any others that do not not die because they have been treated means absolutley nothing.

Winter came very early and it was half metre snow on hive roofs when beekeepers should treat their hives. So they could not treat the hives. We waited mild weathers that snow melts aways but that did not happen. Next winter guys has exceptionally big losses.

Well I dont see that proves they died because of not being treated. As you say, winter came early. Extra snow. "Next winter guys has exceptionally big losses" The next winter?

I started to use electrict heating in spring even if I had known the method 40 years.

and could it therefore be that they are now not dying because they are warmer?

 

[oliver90owner]

I've treated EVERY year that varroa has been endemic in this district of Scotland

That would mean you were treating with oxalic long before it was officially allowed in the UK? Join the club. I did, too. I used to get railed by our local bee inspector for it. But the difference now is I would only treat with oxalic if they needed it. Simple as that. No winter colony losses down to varroa in the last 6 years using that policy. Works for me.

 

[Dishmop]

Finmans mite figures are correct and KNOWLEDGE based - not some hypothetical imaginary theory. Varroa is THE most serious pest that threatens honeybees and EVERYTHING possible should be done to eraiicate it at every possiuble opportunity.

nobody said otherwise.

 

[Dishmop]

Dishmop, I've treated EVERY year that varroa has been endemic in this district of Scotland and yes I do record any losses. As i said in my previous post-.my losses have been for the reasons stated. The decision to use or not to use ANY treatment is yours alone and I would not attempt to change your mind. But I ask is your reasoning knowledge based ?.

Corrected.

so you dont really know that you didnt have any losses (other than those mentioned) because of the fact that you treated.

 

[Dishmop]

But I ask is your reasoning knowledge based ?.

Limited experience based.

Ask Rab the same question.

 

[oliver90owner]

Even ask Hivemaker the same question.

 

[johna]

RAB, YOU show ignorance as well .OA is NOT allowed in the UK at present - officially - however its use is condoned by bee inspeectors and the ministry a) because it is in general use and b) because of its efficiency in dealing with mites. I've been to conventions where ministry inspectors have advocated its use to combat mite problems. I will use every method possible to safeguard my colonies. I know that if I didn't use OA I would be seeing all the other nasties such as DWV during the summer.

 

[Dishmop]

I know that if I didn't use OA I would be seeing all the other nasties such as DWV during the summer.

I thought DWV is caused by varroa?