Oxalic treatments, can they be mixed?

[oliver90owner]

The trouble with trickling is that it is often carried out long after the bees should be relativey varroa-free.

Nothing really to do with survival, unless they manage to get to spring brooding, which may all be varroa infested and the new brood being looked after by virus-ridden bees. Getting bees through the to spring requires heathy winter bees - brooded with low levels of virus carrying mites.

All winter trickling does, or should do, is remove very few mites ready for a clean start in spring. If they have a heavy mite load during the winter, they are already at risk of adding to the 'dead-out' annual totals.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

oxalic sublimation in Autumn? would this not kill off a generation of winter bees?

no

 

[Juhani Lundén]

There's published data on trickled oxalic acid weakening hives - both recently - January this year in J. Api. Res. - from the Sussex group and years (10+) ago from Charriere & Imdorf (spelling might be a bit off on the second name?). The first listed was a single treatment on known broodless colonies. It was in comparison to sublimated or untreated, also broodless, so properly controlled. Many hives were tested. I don't have the paper to hand but recollect the colonies were 85% the strength of those sublimated.

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537

This one?

 

[fatshark]

That's the press release Juhani ... here's the paper (not sure if the link works as you might need a subscription to JAR).

 

[alldigging]

You should sublimate in the autumn when you would normally use thymol (three times five days apart to ensure you zap as many as possible as there could be brood) then, the same as with trickling you can do a midwinter one if you think necessary


Same here
Ideally you should treat when the colony needs it. That requires constant monitoring of the varroa load.
There is an excellent piece in scientific beekeeping about monitoring and when you should do it and how

got a link?
thanks

 

[peteinwilts]

oxalic sublimation in Autumn? would this not kill off a generation of winter bees?

no

The acid will kill varroa providing they are not in a capped cell. When there is brood in the hive normally only about 15% of the mites are found on the bees. The rest are in the brood. So treat when colony is broodless. Another reason to ensure colony is broodless is that oxalic acid will kill open brood.

so the last line is incorrect?

if correct, an autumn sublimation would kill all non capped brood

An unnatural brood break just before winter does not seem logical to me at all...

 

[Erichalfbee]

got a link?
thanks

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-11-mite-monitoring-methods/

The whole site is a mine of information

 

[Cussword]

No, sublimation will not kill the bees.

Unless, of course, a couple get into the "pan".
Not a very nice smell at all

Worth saying again.

 

[peteinwilts]

Worth saying again.

Based on a similar theory that ducks and witches are made of wood, if oxalic kills brood, it must by definition kill bees.

We know thymol in autumn can put the queen partially or wholly off lay, it does not happen always.
If effective oxalic kills brood, it has to be detrimental in autumn.... surely.

For the more... ahem.. established beekeepers, beekeepers moved away from mid winter sublimation in favour of trickling... I am interested in knowing why this happened?

I am all in favour of trying new things and adopting new methods, but currently (to me) autumn oxalic instead of thymol is not making sense.
I have been reading a bunch of posts from 2013 regarding the trickling/sublimation argument, but this is the first time I have heard of it replacing autumn thymol.

I might be just being thick? :-/

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The acid will kill varroa providing they are not in a capped cell. When there is brood in the hive normally only about 15% of the mites are found on the bees. The rest are in the brood. So treat when colony is broodless. Another reason to ensure colony is broodless is that oxalic acid will kill open brood.

so the last line is incorrect?

I found no evidence of brood being killed last season - where did you read that?
depends whether you're talking sublimation or trickling/spraying - big difference I should think after reding various papers.

“With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.”

(Heinz Kaemmerer, Medhat Nasr)

Oxalic acid does not kill varroa in sealed cells, but rather kills those varroa transported on the bodies of workers and also those crawling in cells not yet capped.The researchers determined the proportion of mites killed by washing the mites off a sample of approximately 300 workers bees immediately before and after 10 days of treatment with OA. They also determined the number of bees killed at the time of treatment, together with hive mortality and strength 4 months later in spring.
The results came to a clear and encouraging conclusion. Application of OA via sublimation, where OA is applied in its pure form by vapourising the crystals with a special heated tool, was superior to application as a solution via either spraying or dribbling. Sublimation gave a greater kill of varroa at a lower OA level and showed no increase in bee mortality. In fact, 4 months after treatment, the hives treated via the sublimation had more brood than the 10 untreated colonies.

(Ratnieks et al, univeristy of Sussex - doesn't say whether or not sublimated OA kills brood, but seems to imply it doesn't)

Research suggests it is less detrimental to adult bees, brood and hive
strength following application

(Jadczac)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If effective oxalic kills brood, it has to be detrimental in autumn.... surely.

So you're moving from the statement that OA kills open brood (but making no indication whether we're talking ttrickling, spraying or sublimation) to a flat statement 'it kills brood' a quantum leap.

all science says that OA doesn't penetrate the cappings in sealed brood thus we can assume the brood is unaffected therefore we only have open brood to worry about - so sublimation in autumn is not going to cause a brood break and there seems to be little evidence that it has any effect on brooding whatsoever, in fact LASI maintain that brooding is better in sublimated olonies than those treated by trickling.

 

[Cussword]

If effective oxalic kills brood.

Wherever did you pick up that idea, I said that sublimation doesn't kill bees?

For the more... ahem.. established beekeepers.

Although I'm.. ahem, a beekeeper that is not as experienced as you in beekeeping, maybe I'm just a little more experienced in sublimating with Oxalic acid?


I might be just being thick? /

If the cap fits?

 

[peteinwilts]

Thanks Jenkins for an intelligent answer.

Shame about the other.

Understanding is a large part of learning. If I was blindly following advice, I would be on a different forum. I also treat possible harmful actions as risky until proven otherwise. This is common sense

Both sides of sublimation at any other time than mid winter has had some good debates on here a couple of years ago. For now, I have no problem sitting on the fence.

As for the OPs question, I note that the article that erichalfbee linked to suggests treating more than once in winter is not recommended.
Naturally others have other opinions...

 

[Cussword]

Shame about the other.

You asked a straightforward question, I gave a straightforward answer.
You ignored it, I repeated it.

You became sarky, and a little supercillious.

I put you in your place.


The only shame was that you thought you too clever to learn anything from someone that doesn't have as much beekeeping experience as you.

I learned about Oxalic Sublimation by using it, and reading, among others, Hivemaker's posts, how he tested repeatedly with no ill effects, even using a higher dose! Its also a shame that you didn't use the search button to have seen them.
Isn't that what we tell the inexperienced??

 

[alldigging]

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-11-mite-monitoring-methods/

The whole site is a mine of information

Thanks - I have been on it but it's always nice to have a direct link!

 

[peteinwilts]

You asked a straightforward question, I gave a straightforward answer.
You ignored it, I repeated it.

You became sarky, and a little supercillious.

I put you in your place.


The only shame was that you thought you too clever to learn anything from someone that doesn't have as much beekeeping experience as you.

I learned about Oxalic Sublimation by using it, and reading, among others, Hivemaker's posts, how he tested repeatedly with no ill effects, even using a higher dose! Its also a shame that you didn't use the search button to have seen them.
Isn't that what we tell the inexperienced??

"no it won't kill bees" was not really a sufficient answer for me to understand the impact an autumn sublimation will have.
Although Oxalic is a polar acid, it can kill eggs and open brood. Therefore it would kill bees (by definition of an egg and larvae are stages of the bee lifecycle, thus they are bees), and as per Jenkins answer the affect is minimal and post treatment the bees have an invigorated brood cycle.

I do not believe I am clever or more experienced than others on this forum, including those with less hives and those performing beekeeping for less time. Sometimes knowledge gained from new beekeepers can be better than beekeepers with a long history, as they will not be 'stuck in old ways'.
As a child, Pluto was known as a planet, and we were about to be plunged into an ice age. This is now considered not the case, and as a result I have learnt differently... the understanding of science moves.

I have an open and enquiring mind. If I want to learn something different to contrary knowledge, I will need to know why and have evidence as opposed to a simple sentence that makes no logical sense whatsoever. An answer may satisfy some. To understand, the answer to 'why' is also required.

If YOU perform a search on the forum, you will see a lot of posts stating that Oxalic and sublimation DOES kill brood and bees. I won't repeat what is in the scientific paper posted which also says the same. The question was regarding the extent of the damage and rate of recovery.

I am not affected by the tolling that has been recently plaguing the forum, therefore I do not feel as if I have been put in my place. (just an fyi! )
If you want to give a proper answer, please give a fuller answer and the reasons behind it, and one that you believe is technically factual. This is one of the key purposes on the forum.

Varroa was introduced into the UK whilst I was not a beekeeper, and sublimation was a method used previously, which was replaced by trickling. (so I have read!)

I am wondering 'why' beekeepers moved away from sublimation, and why we are moving back... presumably, both moves were for a reason.

So far, I have not found an answer in any searches performed, I do not believe it is constantly repeated question so possibly a valid question?

 

[Cussword]

OK then...

I was not aware that I had to quote various papers and suchlike to answer a straightforward question that I knew the answer to from experience and from the reading suggested, below.

As for "trolling", you were, to use a word you used, "Ahem" sarcastic. I felt that I had a right to reply.

By all means sit on the fence,but please don't insinuate that those of us that sublimate with no problem are doing wrong.

Just read Hivemaker's posts. Seriously, use the search function no insult intended.
Oh, and look up University of Sussex.
That may help you.

I will also say that the only bees that I've killed using sublimation, Autumn and Winter, have been the ones that have climbed into the pan.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Lasi set out the case quite categorically for sublimation in their latest paper, the only unfortunate thing I can find with the last study is that they applied their prejudice to treating with brood in the hive and thus their obsession with having the colonies broodles for treatment to the whole study instead of treating with and without to make comparisons and set the matter straight once and for all.
Took me a long while on the fence before deciding to go for sublimation so it wasn't a decision taken lightly I didn't take notes or keep references during my decision making period but just a quick scan on the net gives very little indication that OA sublimation specifically kills open brood - just vague references to OA in general and the inference seems to be this is OA in syrup solution and in fact, as I mentioned earlier on one paper implies that desublimated OA in open brood cells kills mites but not brood.
I contained my first 'three hit' sublimation treatment to my home apiary so I could pop up every morning when letting the chickens out and giving the dog a zip around (she loves the apiary) so I can check drop boards and hive entrances (the beauty of underfloor entrances is that you can often see the evidence of mortalities as each morning they dump out all the casualties and they sit in 'the porch' until such time as they feel like tidying up) and I can honestly say that there was little if any (one hive from seventeen) evidence of clearing out dead brood although all hives were brooding.
But to be honest (and a little lazy) I think a lot of us took the lead from HM - he has a lot more experience and a lot more bees to play with ( thus can fiddle and check a bit more) than us so his recommendation helped sway the decision.
Having Cardiganshire blood and seeing the savings possible helped a bit too

 

[mbc]

The LASI paper doesnt mention open brood (as far as I could make out) but rather the work was done at a time when the hives were hoped to be broodless, if they did have sealed brood it was scratched out to ensure they were broodless for experimental purposes, at least thats my understanding.
Considering how delicate eggs and young larvae are, I think it would be a minor miracle if a fine coating of oxalic acid crystals coalescing on them didnt kill a good proportion (similarly a high conc. of thymol or formic acid vapour kills alot).
Every varroa treatment is "cruel to be kind", I dont think anything effective enough to kill, or to make infertile, the varroa mites is going to be benign enough to not harm delicate bee larvae.
I would think given how much attention brood gets that only some open brood caught in the window immediately post treatment would be affected and either chucked out or cannibalised by the bees, and this would be hardly noticeable in the grand scheme of things within the colony, not enough to make repeated oav a poor choice of treatment in the autumn imho, but certainly it would be nice to have this definitively, lets hope that LASI or someone else has the funding and inclination to do a rigorous scientific study on the ins and outs of these matters for us.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The LASI paper doesnt mention open brood (as far as I could make out) but rather the work was done at a time when the hives were hoped to be broodless, if they did have sealed brood it was scratched out to ensure they were broodless for experimental purposes, at least thats my understanding.

That's the point I was trying to make - I couldn't find any reference to open brood and/or the effect of sublimation on it either, and the only references I could find all dealt with trickling not sublimation. I'd have liked them to address this as the chances of the colony being broodless are pretty slim these days and I don't think ripping open the hives and removing brood is desireable or sensible in a normal working apiary.
Hopefully someone will get bored and make this their next study instead of just dismissing the fact that people might treat (or want to treat) with brood present.