Oxalic Acid

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The thing to do is keep your nose clean, don't pick a fight with the VMD or the NBU and deny everything!

'Nuff said?

CVB

Not so easy I'm afraid. If you sublimate licensed product formulated with sugar it will leave a 5HMF signature which is absent in fresh honey. If you sublimate unlicensed pure OA your honey will be 'cleaner' and potentially safer than sublimated licensed product!

Not at all satisfactory in my view as your only safe 'legal' option is to trickle with the licensed product. P**s poor in my opinion and not sure it would hold up as a legal argument if prosecuted but could cause some embarassment.

https://tinyurl.com/yb2v3ssh
 
No problem in Scotland at any time. They’re massively understaffed...

I can assure you that understaffed they may be...but the scrutiny is targetted and pretty full on. Luis our national bee inspector is a real terrier.

Also in another post the fact the NBU does not have any role in Scotland is incorrect. Scotalnd joined Beebase, and liases with the NBU all the time, and our bee health strategy is very similar and influenced by the UK one. Yes its a devolved matter, but any idea we are vastly different is a false impression.

The only thing that bugs ME is the lack of (official) cross border recognition of expertise. Scotland does not recognise DASH and England and Wales do not recognise Scottish disease recognition training training. Its frustrating but unfortunately it is a consequence of structures here and both sides apparently are settled that it cannot be. Awkward for those with a presence on both sides of the border.

I have always found the NBU helpful.
 
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I suspect that the VMD will have bigger fish to fry than seeking out a few beekeepers who are doing what they have been doing for years without interference ...but.. the risk is always there that they will seek out someone to make an example of ... like the HSE the VMD does not have sufficient personnel to pursue every case ... they rely on prosecuting a token number of cases - go for the maxuimum penalties (even if they don't achieve them) and the maximum exposure and publicity. That's how they discourage others from breaking the law.

Spot on......instead of having a major campaign they wll pick on someone with a reasonably high profile as an example to the rest.
Then...instead of a bee community dedicated to the wellbeing of their bees and doing what is best we become watchers of our own backs.
The bodies charged with bee health become instruments of enforcement of red tape requirements...and drives a wedge between the beekeepers (or at least some of them) and those whose real job should be being on the same team. I have met some real officious sods in my time as inspectors but the vast majority are ON OUR SIDE and are helpful if allowed to be so.

They are not our enemy.....a classic example was a guy who bought package bees from me......a fully up front activity conducted with the NBU on board all the time.....was rather ill when they arrived. They should all be inspected on arrival and indeed almost invariably are. However when the inspectors came he was unable to get on with the work...so just out of the goodness of their hearts they helped install them. Merit stars all round there.
 
I can assure you that understaffed they may be...but the scrutiny is targetted and pretty full on. Luis our national bee inspector is a real terrier.
Point taken.
My comment was based on what the inspector told me, during a couple of visits in the summer.
 
If there any beeks who do keep records and use generic OA, I wonder what they enter on the record?
Presuming that is a rhetorical question. Quite sure you know the answer to that.
Part of a bee inspection can be....and have direct experience of this...is asking to see your medicines record. Happened during a routine honey sampling visit.
So...who is going to make the entries in there that could form the basis of your own prosecution?
 
Since then, when I joined to UK beekeeping forum, somebody has allways reminded that using oxalic acid is illegal. It is now allmost 20 years and this will not become better.

Not really Finman................there is a big difference (might not seem like it but there is) between 'illegal' as in specifically not allowed, the status of generic OA now after registration of commercial formulations....and ''not legal' as in not specifically authorised...which is the status OA had before that.

But you are right, this is an very old story that goes through annual reincarnations.
 
asking to see your medicines record. Happened during a routine honey sampling visit.
pick on someone with a reasonably high profile as an example to the rest.
My comment was based on what the inspector told me

Guy, it may be credible to pretend I don't treat if you have a couple of hobby colonies, but that claim wouldn't stand up once you run enough to make money from this game. The Inspectors know where to head if they want to advertise the regulations on a limited budget.
 
Not really Finman................there is a big difference (might not seem like it but there is) between 'illegal' as in specifically not allowed, the status of generic OA now after registration of commercial formulations....and ''not legal' as in not specifically authorised...which is the status OA had before that.

But you are right, this is an very old story that goes through annual reincarnations.


Latest edition of BBKA magazine has full page advert for Oxybee -main ingredient appears to be OA
 
Perhaps the following may be of interest in terms of how likely it is that using generic OA can be a problem...IF you play the game properly and avoid being a pedantic stickler for the rules.

Some time ago Apitraz was registered for use in the UK. It was however made in strip sizes that were not suitable for our BS depth broodnests without cutting. This opened up the channel of CASCADE (if you dont know what that is look it up but becomes irrelevant in 4 days time anyway) to import Biowar (same active ingredient) under a special import certificate issued by a vet, as the licensed product was unsuitable as provided as it did not fit the hives, and the alternatives (Apistan etc) were ineffective. (Yes I KNOW we could have cut it, but there are ways to play the rules game...use them to your advantage). Happened to save me some GBP9000 a season but the reason to import was product suitability, not cost. (Forget cost..that consideration is legislated against, so find a legal way) Nowadays it is made to UK sizes so that route was cut off.

Now, I doubt it has been tested yet, but these products with non OA ingredients, (which do seem to be benign additives purely to say it is a 'formulation' rather than of any specific effect) which actually gum up your delivery system have a point of weakness there that should allow you to go by another route.....the delivery system require OA devoid of silica and glucose...thus such a product can be deemed (by you) not suitable for your needs. Exactly how to get that approval I am not sure...for now my advice would be to keep your head down...keep a spare gummed up tray from your sublimator in your shed to show any inspector why the licensed product is not suitable.
 
What is the difference, in terms of hive cleaning and possible affects on bees between these two products?
The Hanna OA is intended to be used for chemical analysis by titration and is 100% OA by concentration at £98/20g and the Fiddes wood bleach is £17/kg; purity not stated.
Is a recommendation being made to use the reagent grade or are others using the cheaper off the shelf stuff?

None of us ought to recommend any product other than the approved, and given product choice and risk it's easy to see why the VMD want to limit beekeeper options.

That the law cannot prevent beekeepers fiddling with internet OA may be less relevant to the VMD than the fact that they've been seen to legislate.
 
If you treat early or late in the year when the Inspectors are hibernating there is zero chance of the discovery of OA traces. Even supposing a beekeeper treated with OA in season, would it coincide with the almost immediate taking by an Inspector of a honey sample?

This law is unenforceable and makes minor criminals of ordinary beekeepers. Not wishing to become one, I spent many minutes yesterday scraping repeatedly at the unnecessary caramelised junk in the Sublimox pan.
It's a bag of ****, we either accept punitive cost for an inferior product or get corralled into breaking the strict letter of the law, it's shameful it's allowed to continue.
It's no use pretending the authorities on the coal face (sbi's) turning a blind eye makes the situation ok either, as it puts them and us in an unnecessarily awkward situation.
At the end of the day food producers want all their documentation to be correct and up to scrutiny so if I want to use generic oxalic acid I have to lie about it in my medicines records, as I say, a bag of **** .
 
Hi when you use API Bioxal in a Sublimox, does it block the spout at all? If so, approx after how many treatments? How do you clean the spout?
No, not really; occasionally it lines the tube, but a jet of sublimation blasts it out. I assume the silica was included to prevent absorption of moisture by the OA, and it does do that job.

Ordinary OA absorbs moisture and can get clumpy in storage (a silica bag may prevent this) and it will block the pipe after half a dozen blasts on a damp day. The warmer the ambient temp. the less the pipe blocks. Soft wire is the best unblocker; boiling water helped. In the field, fizzy drink was recommended, but it cools the pan.
 
Not really Finman................there is a big difference (might not seem like it but there is) between 'illegal' as in specifically not allowed, the status of generic OA now after registration of commercial formulations....and ''not legal' as in not specifically authorised...which is the status OA had before that.

But you are right, this is an very old story that goes through annual reincarnations.

Yes ... I've seen a few threads in the past but they have petred out fairly rapidly.

I think what has changed is that more and more beekeepers (particularly in this forum) are moving towards sublimation - including some relative new beekeepers. There is also, clearly, some confusion about what is and is not permissible.

It has been an interesting thread so far and a lot of issues have been explored - and your input has been educational. It is, as you say, a farcical situation which, at present, appears insurmountable - leaving people either using an expensive and largely unsuitable product for sublimation or breaking the law, keeping (or not keeping !) records that are false whilst using a cheap, generic OA that is very effective .... Considering that our department of agriculture and the VMD have as one of their prime objectives maintaining the health and viability of our livestock (including honey bees) and taking into account the vital service these pollinators provide it beggars belief.

Plus ... we all produce honey that is not contaminated with anything else .. is not imported via three or four countries after goodness only knows what is chucked into the hives in the originating country and then being cut with chemically refined syrups (manufactured specifically to replicate the chemical footprint of honey) before being sold under dubious labels for a fraction of the price of real honey ! It's high time the whole darned business was cleaned up and a good starting point would be to allow us to treat our bees for varroa, economically, with the best substance available.
 
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.......snip..................This law is unenforceable and makes minor criminals of ordinary beekeepers. Not wishing to become one...........................
To be effective any law must be enforceable, perceived as just, and have the ability to change. The reasons for regulation that criminalises the conduct of the ordinary beekeeper, conduct that would not otherwise be viewed as intrinsically wrong or criminal, should be very clear, precise and set out in a manner that encourages scrutiny and debate of the issues.
 
To be effective any law must be enforceable, perceived as just, and have the ability to change. The reasons for regulation that criminalises the conduct of the ordinary beekeeper, conduct that would not otherwise be viewed as intrinsically wrong or criminal, should be very clear, precise and set out in a manner that encourages scrutiny and debate of the issues.

It also should be "fair and reasonable".... which the current legislation, quite clearly is not!

Chons da
 
To be effective any law must be enforceable, perceived as just, and have the ability to change. The reasons for regulation that criminalises the conduct of the ordinary beekeeper, conduct that would not otherwise be viewed as intrinsically wrong or criminal, should be very clear, precise and set out in a manner that encourages scrutiny and debate of the issues.
Yes, law works when we accept the benefit of it for all - seatbelts, traffic lights - but consensus is lost and the law disregarded when no communal benefit is seen to be gained.

For example, it remains illegal to beat a rug in front of a property before 8am, or deface legal money (Currency & Banknotes Act 1928) but though the latter makes me a criminal - in about 1980 I achieved momentary glory backstage at Wembley Arena when Carl Perkins autographed a £5 note - it would be hard to argue that anyone would benefit from the waste of time enforcing such backwater rules.

The VMD may argue that there is a benefit of safety for beekeepers and consumers by limiting options for use of OA or other treatments, but I doubt they'd expose their reasoning. What went through the VMD mind when it approved ApiBioxal, knowing that prior sensible EU research would avoid the need entirely? Money, presumably, rather than the public good.

If, as Philip claims, we all produce honey that is not contaminated with anything else, it's reasonable to accept good legislation that protects that purity of product, especially as there exist criminal beekeepers eager to fool the public. Plainly, UK OA legislation is seen as bad legislation because OA occurs naturally in honey, recedes rapidly when introduced into a hive or honey, and because research accepted by the EU showed that the risk is not worth the bother.

As Philip outlined above, the UK had the chance to join EU beekeepers and support work to obtain exemption from EU MRL legislation. The story in the link is worth reading in full because what stands out is the absence of UK interest in the initiative. Where was the BBKA? Seems they preferred short-sighted stupidity and supported the VMD route, when they should have seen the bigger picture and worked with sensible European partners for the benefit of all beekeepers. The murky money reasons are predictable; would an FOI request flush out the truth?

Mint Bee's plan is more positive: There is a route to getting a license based on prior use and published data. A trustee of the BBKA asked me about this a few years ago in response to a previous thread on the subject, but it all went quiet. Biggest cost of the license is to write it up. If someone with the appropriate experience did this FOC then application and maintenance fees would be only major expenses. Could you sell enough at a reasonable cost to cover these expenses. I don't know.

This route may have legs; will someone come forward to take on the job to explore it?
 
The story in the link is worth reading in full because what stands out is the absence of UK interest in the initiative. Where was the BBKA? Seems they preferred short-sighted stupidity and supported the VMD route,
Maybe they were too busy redesigning their 'Master' beekeeper certificates, or maybe, once again, as with the Neonics debacle a 'sponsorship' cheque was waved to distract them
 
Mint Bee's plan is more positive: There is a route to getting a license based on prior use and published data. A trustee of the BBKA asked me about this a few years ago in response to a previous thread on the subject, but it all went quiet. Biggest cost of the license is to write it up. If someone with the appropriate experience did this FOC then application and maintenance fees would be only major expenses. Could you sell enough at a reasonable cost to cover these expenses. I don't know.

This route may have legs; will someone come forward to take on the job to explore it?

There is that possibility ... perhaps with crowd funding to cover the costs of the VMD ?

Murray's comments at #111 above were interesting as well .. adds credence to the need ...

"Now, I doubt it has been tested yet, but these products with non OA ingredients, (which do seem to be benign additives purely to say it is a 'formulation' rather than of any specific effect) which actually gum up your delivery system have a point of weakness there that should allow you to go by another route.....the delivery system require OA devoid of silica and glucose...thus such a product can be deemed (by you) not suitable for your needs. Exactly how to get that approval I am not sure...for now my advice would be to keep your head down...keep a spare gummed up tray from your sublimator in your shed to show any inspector why the licensed product is not suitable."
 
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