New Beekeeper - standard vs 14x12

[twebs]

Evening Everyone. As a new beekeeper who has joined and is attending my local association and is keen to get kitted up at Tradex next month with some show prices I am sat pondering on the Hives I am looking to buy.

So. I am set on Abelo Poly National hive. Job done. This is not my question.

My question related to 14x12 vs standard nation brood box.

Aiming as a hobby but also semi commercial as I run a Farm Shop so hopefully have plenty of locals customers who will be keen.

I have local bees readily available on 14x12s or standards so that is not a concern.

What I am trying to decide on is whether I should start out on standard national or a 14x12. I'm looking for productive hives. I'm a young active dextrous chap so weight is not an issue for me. Im particularly interested in ease and efficiency of my different options.

1. As a beginner managing 14x12s rather than double broods or brood and a half seems like a sensible thing but perhaps I am missing something in the flexibility of running multiple boxes?

2. It seems to me if I'm having to overwinter in more than a standard brood I might as well be in a 14x12?

3. I have also heard talk of the preferable option being a brood and a half where the brood is on top of a super?

4. Last but not least - best to start with one hive or two? As you might have guessed I'm pretty keen.

Interested in peoples thoughts. Like I said I'm set on my make of hive I am just interested in thoughts about brood box size as a beginner looking to have productive colonies for his small business.

Many thanks!

 

[For want of a better word]

All depends on type of bee that is kept locally....some will build large colonies, then as soon as a lack of forage comes along they eat all of their stores.... some would be lost in a large box and keep all of their stores in it.
I have standard Nationals... tried 14 x 12 frames and bees did not do so well as far as honey production went... may have been the weather!

You may find most of the other beekeepers in your area favour Langstroths... easiest is to find out what works locally and go with that!

Yeghes da

 

[pargyle]

I prefer 14 x 12's but to some extent it's a very personal decision. You've already sussed out some of the benefits of bigger frames:

1. Only one brood box to worry about
2. One box well filled with stores will see them through winter
3. Less chance of the queen running out of space in the season
4. Std Nationals can be a bit small for 'modern' prolific queens
5. Std national Brood and a half is a PITA
6. Std national double brood works but only if your queen can fill it

But ... smaller boxes are easier on the back ...every beekeeper will suffer from beekeepers back at some point - more so if you intend to be a beekeeper who decides to move your bees around to take advantage of areas of forage such as the heather.

Like I said ... pays yer money and takes yer choice ..

There's also Langstroths and Commercials to consider for bigger boxes ..

I'm sure there will be plenty on here who swear by different configurations .. they are all right .. best thing is to try and get alongside people who are using different platforms and see what YOU prefer before you commit to any one flavour. Nothing more annoying in beekeeping than mis-matched kit.

Two hives to start with - or shortly after you start - or even a hive and a Nucleus - gives you so many more options and trust me - you will NEVER manage to stick at one hive so you might as well start with two !!

 

[Swift Nick]

Answering on point 4;
I only started last year, but would recommend 2 colonies, not 1. It allows you to make comparisons and know if something is not right, it will also allow you to have a frame of eggs to switch if one of your colonies loses the queen for some reason.

 

[drex]

You will find out what works for you. Pity you do not have a chance to handle some others hives before going to the show. My only comment is that brood and a half is the worst of the lot. Been there. Now run double nationals. Pros and cons to all

 

[mbc]

14 x 12 are worse than the devils turds, awkward monstrosities designed to enrage sensible beekeeping folk.

 

[theeggman]

I'm with pargyle.

From day 1 I've run 14 x 12 in both wood and poly (poly seems better for the bees). I've only got one brood box to go through each inspection and from my point of view it's simpler. Running just a few colonies and being a wrinkly and retired time is not an issue.

P.S. Go with 2 colonies. IF the manure hits the impeller you have a get out clause.

 

[twebs]

Many thanks everyone for your replies. Much appreciated. It sounds very much like its a personal choice! Tricky when you've never used either option!

From a productivity point of view. If you are using a larger 14x12 brood box, I understand the bees may be able to over winter in this without feeding.

If this is the case from a productive / commercial point of view would it have been better for those extra stores in the 14x12 box to have been in a super and be feeding the bees through the winter?

 

[Millet]

Standard national (Abelo poly) brood boxes all day long for me and the world is my Oyster, i can even do away with shallows for supers if needs must and keep all standard brood boxes, i can lift the boxes and i have the extractor before anyone mentions extracting deep's , i can also chop and change with frames in manipulations with any hive i have, if i need a frame of eggs from a fellow beekeeper 9 times out of 10 we will have the same format, i could go on but them 14x 12 things can cause problems and make life harder than it needs to be from what i have heard and researched.

 

[Hivemaker.]

14 x 12 are worse than the devils turds, awkward monstrosities designed to enrage sensible beekeeping folk.

Indeed... the devils own invention and an abomination.

 

[twebs]

@ Millet.

Please could you tell me how do you extract from frames made to fit a standard brood box?

 

[Gwr]

I currently run both national and 14x12 nationals and I find the 14x12 much easier all round. I only have standard nationals still because that’s what I started with many years ago but I’ve been buying ekes from the bee suppliers recently to change my nation brood boxes to 14x12 as and when I get round to it.

As well as my full-size hives i do run a number of 6 frame nuc hives as permanent hives as well and I have those in standard and 14x12 boxes. The difference is I double up or even quadruple up the brood boxes and I really like working them. The bees seem to really like them as they are obviously very narrow and very tall like a trees I guess. I find overwintering here in North Wales better in nucs and if they are in full-size hives I insulate them down in width.

In my full size hives I’ve tried running single brood, brood & half and double brood over several years and as I mentioned I’ll be sticky on with 14x12 fully soon. All my hives are in wood except for a couple of Payne’s poly nucs that I have been given over the years.

I’m sticking with wood because Moisture in the polys for me is an issue all year round, I’ve lost an poly nuc hive already due to amount of damp this year, even with extra roof installation of 75mm added but that might be because of where I live. That said others experience high moisture even in the 160 thick Abelo poly hives as well I hear.

I run local Welsh bees, not imports and whilst they are not as prolific as the Italian strains they like the 14x12 ok.

Certainly run more than a single hive, even if it’s just for comparison only at first, but be prepared to grow your hive numbers as they will do that naturally one way or another.

Remember with beekeeping as long as your practice good welfare, there’s no right or wrong way to do things. What works for you will work for you. Do talk and read what other beekeepers say, learn from them and try a few things along the way if you want but never be told it has to be their way or no way. And be prepared to stand your ground and do your own thing.

 

[twebs]

@ Gwr

Many thanks for your reply! Encouraging for the 14 x 12.

Couple more questions to expand.

5. If you are using a larger 14x12 brood box, I understand the bees may be able to over winter in this without feeding. If this is the case from a productive / commercial point of view would it have been better for those extra stores in the 14x12 box to have been in a super and be feeding the bees through the winter?

6. If I were to go 14x12 Abelo do the Poly hive which I would get. I would either get two of them + a nuc or possibly one of them + a nuc (and run two colonies in those hive to start with? Paynes seem to do a nucleus that is a standard national that takes an eke to make it convert to 14x12. Does this seem like a sensible idea?

Thanks!

 

[colinc]

@ Gwr

Many thanks for your reply! Encouraging for the 14 x 12.

Couple more questions to expand.

5. If you are using a larger 14x12 brood box, I understand the bees may be able to over winter in this without feeding. If this is the case from a productive / commercial point of view would it have been better for those extra stores in the 14x12 box to have been in a super and be feeding the bees through the winter?

6. If I were to go 14x12 Abelo do the Poly hive which I would get. I would either get two of them + a nuc or possibly one of them + a nuc (and run two colonies in those hive to start with? Paynes seem to do a nucleus that is a standard national that takes an eke to make it convert to 14x12. Does this seem like a sensible idea?

Thanks!

They will overwinter if they have enough stores the 14x12 gives them space for stores and brood but only if they forage enough and fill it and they like to keep some brood space clear too. Double National is the same they have space to store for winter (I haven’t fed mine sugar this winter yet) and in spring you can flip the boxes if they get crowded against the queen excluder to reduce early swarming urge. Doubles are going to be more adaptable because if the bees are less prolific you run them as a single, if very prolific you could add a third box if you wanted. The advantage is not having loads of different size frames.
Ekes to turn a National into a 14x12 are not wise if you are set on 14x12 go with it. The eke can move when you lift it and you will crush bees. Don’t overcomplicate things there is no need


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[Millet]

@ Millet.

Please could you tell me how do you extract from frames made to fit a standard brood box?

With a Extractor that will take the frames.

 

[Eyeman]

looking to have productive colonies for his small business.

This is the real world.
BBKA survey for 2017- average yield per colony 23.8 lbs.
Whatever you read on here you need to remember that those of us getting over 150 lbs per colony clearly are the outliers.
In the forum world you are not hearing from those that get diddly squat which may be the majority of the 16,052 forum members!
That being said I wish you all the best.

I run with an equal number of british nationals and 14x12's- 32 of each with approx 2/3rds as nucs.
Each design has it's own apiary and I'm happy working with both largely because I bought the kit so I'm keen to make it work.
A question worth asking is what design hive would you choose if you could start again?

 

[twebs]

A question worth asking is what design hive would you choose if you could start again?

That is a good question!

And one more question - if I were to go standards to start how difficult is it to switch these to 14x12s at a later date?

 

[colinc]

If you set up “to run double brood if the bees need it” you wouldn’t need to convert.
I would pick the one you like and commit to it, even if that decision is based on cost of a 14x12 vs double brood.
I would make every attempt to avoid conversion .


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[pargyle]

5. If you are using a larger 14x12 brood box, I understand the bees may be able to over winter in this without feeding. If this is the case from a productive / commercial point of view would it have been better for those extra stores in the 14x12 box to have been in a super and be feeding the bees through the winter?

No need ... you're not understanding the process - you take the supers off at the end of summer -then let them fill the brood box with whatever is left of the summer forage (I like mine to overwinter on honey) and the autumn ivy crop - where you live will dictate when and what forage is available. If they don't put a nice lot of stores away for the winter in the brood box on their own forage you top up with 2:1 Syrup and they will be fine. An empty super on top of the crown board with a slab of celotex or kingspan inside it (50mm at least) will keep them snug as a bug in a rug. They will eat less of the stores and you may find (almost certainly in a poly hive) that they come through with a frame or two of stores left over - take them out in spring when they start to store again - use these spare frames of stores for a Nuc starter when you collect a swarm or your bees swarm !

6. If I were to go 14x12 Abelo do the Poly hive which I would get. I would either get two of them + a nuc or possibly one of them + a nuc (and run two colonies in those hive to start with? Paynes seem to do a nucleus that is a standard national that takes an eke to make it convert to 14x12. Does this seem like a sensible idea?

I have Paynes polys 14 x 12 and Paynes poly Nucs with the eke extender to convert them to a 14 x 12. The extender is a snug fit but if you worry a strip of aluminium tape across the joint holds them together perfectly. A coat of paint on the outside and the bees propolis in the inside ... no problem. I like paynes hives, good value and work for me and Roger Payne is an absolute gent to deal with but ... again, it's what suits you in terms of boxes.

And one more question - if I were to go standards to start how difficult is it to switch these to 14x12s at a later date?


It's possible .. you can convert std nationals to 14 x 12, it's a bit of a fiddle - but bear in mind the frame size is different so you are going to waste the efforts your bees will have gone to in drawing out the combs in the std national frames. Start off as you mean to go on and live with it ....conversion is not something that is lightly tackled.

 

[twebs]

@ pargyle

Ah that makes more sense. Many thanks.

I'm drawn to a 14x12 as an easier inspection in one box etc but worried i'm losing flexibility with it. Thought of running double brood is a bit intimidating though.

Everyone has given me some more things to chew over anyway so many thanks!