New and unknowledgeable

[Ian123]

I did, hence decision to put the strips in 1 hive - I want to check for efficacy and inform a decision about whether I need to do a winter broodless OA sublimation. Hopefully not. This will be winter number 2 only for me so keen to know Is there a better way to make this call?

I’ve never had any problems wondering if I should do a winter oxalic treatment it’s the simplest way of ensuring you have a clean as possible start for the up coming season. So even if your autumn treatments have been as good as you can realistically expect it won’t be 100% your likely to have several more brood cycles, robbing/drifting bees. So quite simply I take the opportunity to treat. Ian

 

[fiat500bee]

Blasted auto correction....LOL

Lima-Oscar-Lima.!

 

[fiat500bee]

Another way of testing without killing:

https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=varroa+tester

I think Ilike it.

 

[fiat500bee]

I think you have to be lucky as well ... there are a lot of factors that lead to heavy mite loads ... the area where your apiary is, the proximity of other bees - potentially with infestation, the characteristics of the bees you keep and their general health, as well as how you manage your colonies. Many of these factors you have absolutely no influence over and any one of them can lead to a colony being overcome. It's why it is essential to check the mite load regularly. It does not need to be an invasive procedure, all you need is a frame out quickly and a sample of bees off it, a sugar roll takes a few minutes if you are organised.

I don't manipulate to force brood breaks ... indeed, I don't force my bees to do anything. I disturb the brood nest as little as possible.

... I believe intensive inspections are invasive and stress the bees .. stressed bees I think are more susceptible to disease and I suspect they are distracted from other tasks ... like cleaning and dealing with varroa and all the other general functions of the colony. They don't like repairing the brood nest and if that is a task they have to do then it takes them away from working on other functions.

I'm foundationless and they build what comb they want - including drone comb - if they want drones they can have them - as many as they see fit. I don't swap out combs unless they are really manky and even then I will do it gradually. I've never seen the need for shook swarms or spring cleaning - the bees don't do it in the wild so why should I inflict this on them ?

Very, very wise advice and I am sure that you're on the nail in that unstressed bees are successful bees.

 

[elainemary]

I think you have to be lucky as well ... there are a lot of factors that lead to heavy mite loads ... the area where your apiary is, the proximity of other bees - potentially with infestation, the characteristics of the bees you keep and their general health, as well as how you manage your colonies. Many of these factors you have absolutely no influence over and any one of them can lead to a colony being overcome. It's why it is essential to check the mite load regularly. It does not need to be an invasive procedure, all you need is a frame out quickly and a sample of bees off it, a sugar roll takes a few minutes if you are organised.

I don't manipulate to force brood breaks ... indeed, I don't force my bees to do anything. My regime, as I've said earlier, is minimal interference - not let alone - but I inspect only as far as is necessary. In the season I need to know if there are queen cells and if there are these will, probably, be the only major manipulations I carry out. I look for signs of brood disease and that they have sufficient room and stores but I'm not into queen chasing or looking at every frame. When I've found what I need to know that's it. I disturb the brood nest as little as possible.

... I believe intensive inspections are invasive and stress the bees .. stressed bees I think are more susceptible to disease and I suspect they are distracted from other tasks ... like cleaning and dealing with varroa and all the other general functions of the colony. They don't like repairing the brood nest and if that is a task they have to do then it takes them away from working on other functions. I do, sometimes, feel that too much emphasis is placed on new beekeepers to get them to look at everything in detail, every frame, every side, desperate to see the queen - yes, you need to know the colony has brood and is healthy and they have sufficient stores - but every frame you take out of the hive has a cost impact on the bees.

I'm foundationless and they build what comb they want - including drone comb - if they want drones they can have them - as many as they see fit. I don't swap out combs unless they are really manky and even then I will do it gradually. I've never seen the need for shook swarms or spring cleaning - the bees don't do it in the wild so why should I inflict this on them ?

I don't know what it is about my bees, their environment or the way I look after them that allows me to remain treatment free and the colonies to manage the varroa without succumbing to colony failure or disease but something is working and I'm just happy that luck runs my way. I've taken a fair amount of honey off this year which will pay for my hobby - I'm happy with what they have produced and they still have enough left to set them up for winter.

I feel very fortunate.

Thanks, lots of food for thought here. Agree with a lot of what you say eg have a clear goal / reasons for inspections; do it carefully, quickly & considerately & make it easy for the colony to make drones.

Just watching Ralph Buchlers series of 4 videos at the 2019 National Honeyshow about managing varroa treatment free. They are well worth watching if you’re a forum member who would like to move towards using less chemicals

 

[Levitt53]

I think many people would have similar luck to you if they would only try going treatment free.

 

[pargyle]

I think many people would have similar luck to you if they would only try going treatment free.

It's a tall order and there are risks .... and a lot of work. It's a whole lot easier just to treat and perhaps if I had more colonies and they weren't in my back garden I would consider the easier route ... I wish I could give you a formula that works but there isn't a silver bullet that will guarantee treatment free will succeed.

 

[BeeGiner]

Can someone confirm how we know heavily infested hives pass mites to other hives? I.e are there studies that show this happening.
This gets talked about a lot on the forum but how do we know it is not just an increase in numbers already in the hive (even if we are treating the hive)

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can someone confirm how we know heavily infested hives pass mites to other hives? I.e are there studies that show this happening.
This gets talked about a lot on the forum but how do we know it is not just an increase in numbers already in the hive (even if we are treating the hive)

Because a collapsing hive has no brood and a heavy varroa load. There are no nurse bees for varroa to jump on prior to invading a larval cell on the point of sealing. So all the varroa are parasitic on the foragers who drift to other hives and any robbers who take them home.
I can’t point you to any research but Beeno, Elainemary and Masterbeekeeper are the ones with the modules. They might have the research at their fingertips.
A few years back when I counted a drop of nearly 8K in one colony over a month I caught quite a few returning foragers intermittently over a week and sugar rolled them. They had a a lot of mites.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Seeley et al found that varroa could easily hitch a ride from one bee from another by climbing into flowers and jumping on the next bee to visit

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0167798

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And there's loads more studies done on the subject
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3896/IBRA.1.50.2.05
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10493-016-0022-9

 

[BeeGiner]

Thanks for the informative answers and links

 

[North End Bees]

Another way of testing without killing:
https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=varroa+tester

Has anyone on here tried the CO2 tester mentioned above? I noticed that Thornes have been promoting them recently.

Randy Oliver did some trials for his Scientific Beekeeping site and found it less effective than an alcohol wash.
(Samples of bees tested in the CO2 shakers only dislodged approx half the mites when the same test sample was followed up with an alcohol wash.)

However many beekeepers are keen to stay away from procedures which sacrifice bees. Perhaps results could be adjusted for the error margin?

Have others on here any experience of using the method?

 

[pargyle]

Has anyone on here tried the CO2 tester mentioned above? I noticed that Thornes have been promoting them recently.

Randy Oliver did some trials for his Scientific Beekeeping site and found it less effective than an alcohol wash.
(Samples of bees tested in the CO2 shakers only dislodged approx half the mites when the same test sample was followed up with an alcohol wash.)

However many beekeepers are keen to stay away from procedures which sacrifice bees. Perhaps results could be adjusted for the error margin?

Have others on here any experience of using the method?

A sugar roll does not involve killing bees and as far as my experience is concerned is just as effective as an alcohol wash. Some time ago, in order to make sure, I did a sugar roll and instead of letting the bees return to the hive I did an alochol wash on the sample ... no further mites were detected. I only did it once but was satisfied that sugar rolls are an effective and non-destructive method of mite counting. I dislike killing bees and I no longer do alcohol washes. CO2 will anaethetise the bees but I rather doubt that it will dislodge the mites - perhaps you are intended to pick the mites off the bees whilst they are comatose ? Sounds like a faf or a fad to me ...

 

[North End Bees]

CO2 will anaethetise the bees but I rather doubt that it will dislodge the mites - perhaps you are intended to pick the mites off the bees whilst they are comatose ? Sounds like a faf or a fad to me ...

The CO2 is supposed to anaesthetise the mites as well as the bees so they fall to the bottom.
I'm not sure that it looks more of a faff than sugar rolls/alcohol washes. But maybe the cost of the CO2 itself might put people off. Icing sugar is very cheap!

 

[pargyle]

The CO2 is supposed to anaesthetise the mites as well as the bees so they fall to the bottom.
I'm not sure that it looks more of a faff than sugar rolls/alcohol washes. But maybe the cost of the CO2 itself might put people off. Icing sugar is very cheap!

My understanding of phoretic mites is that they attach themselves physically to the bee, hairs on their legs entwine with the hairs on the bees body and they also clamp their jaws to the surface of the bees thorax. One can understand why shaking the bees about in icing sugar would dislodge the mites whereas just anaesthetising them may leave some attached. Perhaps those with a greater technical knowledge of bees and their parasitic companions might be along to give you a more educated insight. I'm just a practical beekeeper ...

 

[North End Bees]

My understanding of phoretic mites is that they attach themselves physically to the bee, hairs on their legs entwine with the hairs on the bees body and they also clamp their jaws to the surface of the bees thorax.

I'm assuming the anaesthetic effect of CO2 weakens this grip?

Perhaps those with a greater technical knowledge of bees and their parasitic companions might be along to give you a more educated insight. I'm just a practical beekeeper ...

I'm interested from the practical point of view too!

 

[Erichalfbee]

My understanding of phoretic mites is that they attach themselves physically to the bee, hairs on their legs entwine with the hairs on the bees body and they also clamp their jaws to the surface of the bees thorax. One can understand why shaking the bees about in icing sugar would dislodge the mites whereas just anaesthetising them may leave some attached. Perhaps those with a greater technical knowledge of bees and their parasitic companions might be along to give you a more educated insight. I'm just a practical beekeeper ...

Varroa mites Insinuate themselves between the abdominal tergites where they become largely invisible and they make a feeding site.
The mites have salivary stylets allowing salivary fluid to mix efficiently with The bees’ fat body.
This is Dr Samuel Ramsay’s paper
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/5/1792

 

[North End Bees]

Varroa mites Insinuate themselves between the abdominal tergites where they become largely invisible and they make a feeding site.
The mites have salivary stylets allowing salivary fluid to mix efficiently with The bees’ fat body.
This is Dr Samuel Ramsay’s paper
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/5/1792

Yes, I understand the attachment/feeding habits. But it doesn't answer the question of whether mites are loosened by temporary anaesthesia to a greater or lesser extent than, e.g. the physical effects of sugar rolling.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience of having tried the different techniques and how they compared?

 

[beeno]

[QUOTE="pargyle, post: 731521, member: 9418"
This forum is a very forgiving place if you treat it well and most people are very accepting of different ideas and philosophies ... don't paint yourself into a corner ... there are those that do and there's little way out.
[/QUOTE]
Everyone is nice now on the forum ask Dani