New and unknowledgeable

[fiat500bee]

OK ... not picking holes but as a non-treater there's a few points I would make:

Checking a cupful of bees with a sugar roll is not invasive during the season and it does not harm the bees.
Oxalic acid is a naturally occurring compound - rhubarb leaves are full of it ... I've not treated my bees but I've used OA by sublimation and with OA impregnated strips on other peoples hives .. again, I've never see a dead bee on the landing board after treatment Do you feel lucky ?

All good points and obviously coming from a much more trusted and experienced source than from me. I think I can concede that the sugar-roll may be harmless but I wouldn't measure the harmlessness of a procedure carried out on bees by how many of them did or didn't die directly after the application.

I am not following a dogma, but I can't see how the use of oxalic acid in any format isn't a treatment. But regardless of my subjective judgement, it's the chemistry of the hive that I want to avoid disrupting rather than some blind adherence to a mantra.

I do feel quite lucky, but I hope the bees share that luck....they're going to need it with an awkward sod like me "looking after" them.

 

[pargyle]

All good points and obviously coming from a much more trusted and experienced source than from me. I think I can concede that the sugar-roll may be harmless but I wouldn't measure the harmlessness of a procedure carried out on bees by how many of them did or didn't die directly after the application.

I've bought one of these ...makes a sugar roll a very easy procedure ... although a jar with a wire mesh lid witll do the same and what I used until this summer ,,, I like what the Klarna job does. It's not a treatment BTW .. it's just to check how many varroa there are on a sample of bees. Anyone who tells you they treat their bees for varroa with icing sugar ... it's a waste of good icing sugar ~ save it and bake a cake !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am not following a dogma,

I'd dispute that

 

[fiat500bee]

I'd dispute that

Dispute away.........I accept that treatment for varroa kills varroa and that not treating doesn't kill varroa. What's your dogma about varroa?

 

[pargyle]

Dispute away.........I accept that treatment for varroa kills varroa and that not treating doesn't kill varroa. What's your dogma about varroa?

This is a discourse you cannot win ... do you use foundation in your hives ? Where has that foundation come from ? DO you REALLY know what's in it ?

If, like me, you take your dogma to the end the you have to be prepared to go all the way ... nothing goes in the hives unless your bees bring it in or made it ...

 

[fiat500bee]

This is a discourse you cannot win ... do you use foundation in your hives ? Where has that foundation come from ? DO you REALLY know what's in it ?

If, like me, you take your dogma to the end the you have to be prepared to go all the way ... nothing goes in the hives unless your bees bring it in or made it ...

....that is dogma. As I said, I don't consider myself to have a dogma and there's nothing I want to "win" or prove.

I've come into this completely unmentored and there are a lot more choices I can make which won't have been available to beekeepers who have been "here" before me. I'm thinking about my bees and their hive ecosystem and then about avoidance of contamination of the honey they make. It was at the moment that I became aware that foundation can be contaminated that I started to mentally challenge a lot of the beekeeping orthodoxies.

I'm under no illusion that "I know better" than experienced "hands" and I realise that it's better to get through winter with my bees intact rather than to have no bees and to have my principles intact.

 

[pargyle]

....that is dogma. As I said, I don't consider myself to have a dogma and there's nothing I want to "win" or prove.

I've come into this completely unmentored and there are a lot more choices I can make which won't have been available to beekeepers who have been "here" before me. I'm thinking about my bees and their hive ecosystem and then about avoidance of contamination of the honey they make. It was at the moment that I became aware that foundation can be contaminated that I started to mentally challenge a lot of the beekeeping orthodoxies.

I'm under no illusion that "I know better" than experienced "hands" and I realise that it's better to get through winter with my bees intact rather than to have no bees and to have my principles intact.

I came into beekeeping untutored and unmentored .... I read a lot of books... some good and some bad ...I thought about being a 'natural beekeeper' with top bar hives and then I did a conventional beekeeping course with my local association ... and then I thought a lot ... and then I distilled everything down ... and went my own way. But ... i'm still learning and there are a lot of conventional beekeepers who have helped me on my journey. A lot of them present and past forum members. I accept that I'm not a conventional beekeeper, I'm not a 'natural beekeeper'., I'm not a let alone beekeeper .. I don't even consider myself a good or a 'proper' beekeeper. I just keep bees ... my way. Tread in my path if you wish ... and do things your way. But ... remain open minded ... don't get bogged down in principles or if you prefer 'dogma'. If it works -keep it and try and improve it.... but, if it doesn't (and my beekeeping journey is full of 'didn't works' ) be prepared to change and listen to alternatives.

This forum is a very forgiving place if you treat it well and most people are very accepting of different ideas and philosophies ... don't paint yourself into a corner ... there are those that do and there's little way out.

 

[BugsInABox]

A sugar roll now is out of the question - the bees are making their winter preps ...

Ah that’s awkward, guess what I had planned for the weekend. I’ve used exactly the strips you linked and will be taking them off after 6 weeks this weekend. Would it really be such a problem to take half a cup of nurse bees for a sugar role. (Though I have to say I recon I do kill at least a dozen each time I do it. Looking at the video posted though I do shake a LOT harder - seem to think I picked the need to do so up from Scientific Beekeeping, please correct me if I’m wrong. I also make sure I’ve secured the queen rather than just tossing them in like the video chat did)

 

[fiat500bee]

Tread in my path if you wish ... and do things your way. But ... remain open minded ... don't get bogged down in principles or if you prefer 'dogma'.

I hope that I can do that. I'm in it for the experience of having bees and unlike some people, I don't think that "having" is a dirty word in this context. So if I find that I have acquired any principles which prevent me from doing that, those will be dropped like a hat. I'll review these things in the Spring and if I still have any bees to keep at that time I will pat them on their heads for their patience and resilience and spend next season increasing their number.

 

[pargyle]

Ah that’s awkward, guess what I had planned for the weekend. I’ve used exactly the strips you linked and will be taking them off after 6 weeks this weekend. Would it really be such a problem to take half a cup of nurse bees for a sugar role. (Though I have to say I recon I do kill at least a dozen each time I do it. )

If you do try and do it as quickly and gently as possible ... whip a frame out .. have a piece of thin card with a crease down the middle ... quick shake onto the card and the frame back in. Funnel your sample into the container you are going to sugar roll in. Get the crown board back on quickly. You can then do your sugar roll ... I would then tip the sample back into the hive via the feeder hole in the crown board.,

You are going to have to have everything well set up and organised ... think minimal disturbance. If it's too cold .. forget it.

 

[user 819]

Ah that’s awkward, guess what I had planned for the weekend. I’ve used exactly the strips you linked and will be taking them off after 6 weeks this weekend. Would it really be such a problem to take half a cup of nurse bees for a sugar role.

Seems pointless, one needs to carry out a sugar role pre treatment not after having OA strips in for six weeks.

 

[BugsInABox]

I did, hence decision to put the strips in 1 hive - I want to check for efficacy and inform a decision about whether I need to do a winter broodless OA sublimation. Hopefully not. This will be winter number 2 only for me so keen to know Is there a better way to make this call?

 

[pargyle]

I did, hence decision to put the strips in 1 hive - I want to check for efficacy and inform a decision about whether I need to do a winter broodless OA sublimation. Hopefully not. This will be winter number 2 only for me so keen to know Is there a better way to make this call?

Not really ... if you want to know for certain you can put the inspection board in and vape them ... it won't hurt them and it will give you a good idea of the phonetic load in there ...

 

[Nannysbees]

I have seen so many conflicting threads about varoa treatment that I confess I haven't treated. The bees in my roof seem healthy enough without and have been there 3/4 years. I live in a very rural location my nearest neighbor being across several fields. Not sure if there are any other beekeepers nearby for them to catch it from?

I thought ours didn't have any until I treated and the one hive had over 1800 over the course of the treatment, thank god we did treat!!

 

[gmonag]

..and it will give you a good idea of the phonetic load in there ...

/ləʊd/

 

[pargyle]

/ləʊd/

Blasted auto correction....LOL

 

[elainemary]

OK ... not picking holes but as a non-treater there's a few points I would make:

1. You are correct - going treatment free does need you to know what the mite load is ... without that knowledge you really are risking all. But you don't just need to know what the mite load is going into winter you need to know what it is all the season through and whilst assessing the load you need to watch your bees and see how they react to various levels of varroa. Knowing when the bees are managing the mite load (and there always WILL be a mite load) is the key to keeping bees without treating them. I accept that it is a lot for a new beekeeper to do and my comments about it being the wrong time of year to start are very pertinent. DO you FEEL lucky ... in the immortal words of Dirty Harry.

2. Checkin a cupful of bees with a sugar roll is not invasive during the season and it does not harm the bees. I've never seen a bee die from a sugar roll and I must have done hundreds. I've done alcohol washes but I decided very early on that they were no more indicative than a sugar roll and I don't do them now. A sugar roll now is out of the question - the bees are making their winter preps ... so the board is the only option for a check - and if there are a lot of dead mites on the board .. treat the colony now.

3. Oxalic acid is a naturally occurring compound - rhubarb leaves are full of it ... I've not treated my bees but I've used OA by sublimation and with OA impregnated strips on other peoples hives .. again, I've never see a dead bee on the landing board after treatment and with sublimation it is over so quickly that they don't even come out of the hive. It has a massive effect on the varroa population with virtually no effect on the bees - certainly, apart from the mite drop - there are no outward signs they have been treated. I would agree with you that there are some treatments which the bees clearly hate and they empty out of the hive .. there are also some risks with some of the treatments that given inept use can have an effect on the bees/brood/queens. It's one of the reasons I suggested the OA strips. Cheap, easy and effective to a degree.

4. Treatment free to me is not a doctrine .... I'd prefer to remain treatment free and will as long as my bees cope with the mites but .... and it's a pretty big BUT .. if you find a colony that is not coping with the mites and they are exhibiting DWV or Varoosis then you have to be prepared to either treat or dispose of the colony. You can't redistribute bees that are heavily and continually infested and you can't let them suffer ... you choice is treat or kill.. With one colony your choice is somewhat limited. So far I have not had to kill or treat one of my colonies .. and I accept that I've been lucky ... like I said earlier - Do you feel lucky ?

Good luck with whatever you try to do but maybe DEFINITELY order a nuc for the Spring,

I agree with this - some great advice.
Last year I had 3 colonies with v low mite drops in late summer and decided not to treat (though I did give one oxalic acid sublimation in January). By May all 3 colonies had high varroa drops so I had to do emergency treatment.
You can adopt treatment free, but as per the advice, you need to be further on in your beekeeping experience and carry out other manipulations to enforce brood breaks, for that to be successful

 

[Amari]

Hi Dale,

I've only this year started beekeeping (so please don't listen to me ) but I didn't expect part of it to consist of killing bees in alcohol to see if they have varroa. One of the other ways of detecting varroa appears to be shaking them in a jar of icing sugar. Everyone here will tell you that what you might see or not see under the hive on the tray is no indication of the real number of mites and I am sure they are correct. When they say you can't go treatment-free without first knowing the mite load, that implies you would be prepared to treat them if the load was over a certain level.

Another way of testing without killing:

https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=varroa+tester

 

[Erichalfbee]

You can adopt treatment free, but as per the advice, you need to be further on in your beekeeping experience and carry out other manipulations to enforce brood breaks, for that to be successful

And looking at Dr Samuel Ramsey's talk you should be arranging those brood breaks when the varroa load is still low

 

[pargyle]

I agree with this - some great advice.
Last year I had 3 colonies with v low mite drops in late summer and decided not to treat (though I did give one oxalic acid sublimation in January). By May all 3 colonies had high varroa drops so I had to do emergency treatment.
You can adopt treatment free, but as per the advice, you need to be further on in your beekeeping experience and carry out other manipulations to enforce brood breaks, for that to be successful

I think you have to be lucky as well ... there are a lot of factors that lead to heavy mite loads ... the area where your apiary is, the proximity of other bees - potentially with infestation, the characteristics of the bees you keep and their general health, as well as how you manage your colonies. Many of these factors you have absolutely no influence over and any one of them can lead to a colony being overcome. It's why it is essential to check the mite load regularly. It does not need to be an invasive procedure, all you need is a frame out quickly and a sample of bees off it, a sugar roll takes a few minutes if you are organised.

I don't manipulate to force brood breaks ... indeed, I don't force my bees to do anything. My regime, as I've said earlier, is minimal interference - not let alone - but I inspect only as far as is necessary. In the season I need to know if there are queen cells and if there are these will, probably, be the only major manipulations I carry out. I look for signs of brood disease and that they have sufficient room and stores but I'm not into queen chasing or looking at every frame. When I've found what I need to know that's it. I disturb the brood nest as little as possible.

... I believe intensive inspections are invasive and stress the bees .. stressed bees I think are more susceptible to disease and I suspect they are distracted from other tasks ... like cleaning and dealing with varroa and all the other general functions of the colony. They don't like repairing the brood nest and if that is a task they have to do then it takes them away from working on other functions. I do, sometimes, feel that too much emphasis is placed on new beekeepers to get them to look at everything in detail, every frame, every side, desperate to see the queen - yes, you need to know the colony has brood and is healthy and they have sufficient stores - but every frame you take out of the hive has a cost impact on the bees.

I'm foundationless and they build what comb they want - including drone comb - if they want drones they can have them - as many as they see fit. I don't swap out combs unless they are really manky and even then I will do it gradually. I've never seen the need for shook swarms or spring cleaning - the bees don't do it in the wild so why should I inflict this on them ?

I don't know what it is about my bees, their environment or the way I look after them that allows me to remain treatment free and the colonies to manage the varroa without succumbing to colony failure or disease but something is working and I'm just happy that luck runs my way. I've taken a fair amount of honey off this year which will pay for my hobby - I'm happy with what they have produced and they still have enough left to set them up for winter.

I feel very fortunate.