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I'm sure it suits your cause to paint conventional beekeeping methods as unnatural... :rolleyes: If "many such" beekeepers used methods you approved of, there would be no need to promote "natural" beekeeping, would there?

Sorry Heidi, but you're talking rubbish with experienced beekeepers in the room. Many have bitten their tongues out of politeness so far but the exchange on swarming yesterday showed that you are trying their patience, yet you simply sidestepped their polite, well reasoned comments and questions.
Danbee, I wonder what I have done to upset you. And which specific question would you like me to address. Please phrase it nicely, life's too short for polemics (although there's always another one, of course).
 
How are inspections safely done at that height above the ground? Answer: Standing on a ladder.
An interesting article, but the accompanying pictures are a little confusing because two of them show what appear to be standard boxes
Answer: I have lots of nearly all types, not the Rose hives, as yet.
 
Thanks.

How are inspections safely done at that height above the ground?
Answer: Standing on a ladder
I'm surprised you don't rig up a platform of some sort, it would be easier for the beekeeper to move around a bit, if they need to.

the accompanying pictures are a little confusing because two of them show what appear to be standard boxes
Answer: I have lots of nearly all types, not the Rose hives, as yet.
What are the boxes that look as if they are directly on top of the hanging hives?
 

DesperateDan.jpg
 
Danbee, I wonder what I have done to upset you. And which specific question would you like me to address. Please phrase it nicely, life's too short for polemics (although there's always another one, of course).

A challenge does not mean I am upset; one who makes sweeping statements should expect challenge.

There are a number of unanswered questions regarding swarm control, plus you may care to comment on my responses in post 37 above. For the latter, I'd like to see the facts upon which you based your statements please :)
 
"just for the sake of keeping them" is not how I view natural beekeeping - I think the best description I heard was from David Heaf, who described it as "apicentric beekeeping" - putting the bees before the beekeepers' needs - in a good year I'll take what honey they can spare, in a bad year they can keep it all.... We keep "pets" with no thought of them giving us a crop of something or another - we keep them for the pleasure of having them around - some people rear rare breeds, or have conservation areas in their gardens/farms for threatened species - seems eminently sensible to me
I've always been aware of the difficulty some people have with the term "natural" beekeeping, so it may help to refer to "more" natural beekeeping - as the pedants amongst us will point out, no beekeeping is entirely "natural".

Totally agree with what you say. I didnt get into beekeeping for the honey. I did it because I find them fascinating. The same reason I keep Praying Mantis and the same reason I keep ants. I just dont think there are ENOUGH people who would keep bees for this reason. It seems to me that the largest majority are looking to get something back from them. What I was trying to say was that I think if we got rid of the beeks who kept them for profit then the bees in this country would really struggle as a species. I'm trying to say that I think BOTH methods have a place in beekeeping and I wouldnt say either was wrong.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardenin...ping-could-save-our-honey-making-friends.html

An interesting article, but the accompanying pictures are a little confusing because two of them show what appear to be standard boxes. Some are arranged around a pool, whilst others look as if they're sitting on top of the hanging hives.

Could somebody explain what I'm seeing, please?

and

How are inspections safely done at that height above the ground?

From reading previous threads the boxes are in essence supers either conventional frames or top bars. Then I would assume the sun hives are raised and lowered using a pulley system, otherwise it makes beekeeping dangerous. Just read ladder used. A bee in your suit a fairly dangerous pastime. Sorry does not appeal to me.
 
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Just out of curiosity Heidi I'd be interested to hear what your advice would be to the likes of Murray on how to apply your methods to his business running 2,000 plus hives or any of the other commercial beekeepers. Would you be of the opinion that they could make a living using your "apicentric" approach?

And I wish someone who's as well informed as Dan would shout as loudly as the natural crowd to the media about the untold masses of normal beekeepers the length and breadth of the country who have done and are doing so much for the honeybee.
 
Response to DanBee
You: I wouldn't view the two events as cause and effect. The pesticides endorsement was a thorn in the BBKA's side long before then. I have explained previously here how this came about and that the people involved are all long resigned/retired from the BBKA hierarchy. Martin chooses not to listen because it suits his campaign - for instance he loves to slur Tim Lovett but the man wasn't on the scene when this happened, and was part of the Exec that exited an inherited commercial agreement at the earliest opportunity whilst incurring neither animosity nor cost.
My response: Thank you for these explanations. You will appreciate that the Bayer deals over many years did nothing to enhance the conservation angle of the BBKA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by heidiherrmann
"but the sad fact remains that notwithstanding the many thousand decent and experienced beekeepers affiliated to the organisation the official teaching agenda still encompasses a staggering variety of husbandry advice which i.m.h.o is inimical to the welfare as well as recovery of the bee population."
You: Wrong again. I am an examiner, and also an author of some of the teaching materials you refer to here (and elsewhere recently in a similar vein). It may suit you to state that the BBKA teaches swarm suppression, etc., but it does not. The examiner's mantra is that if the student can demonstrate and explain an appropriate and successful method, it is accepted even if it is not a common method. This comes up every time swarm control is discussed, for instance - and anyone who performs the swarm suppression by queen cell knock-down (that you believe is taught) will fail. From the General Husbandry certificate upwards, candidate are required to be familiar with and demonstrate a number of approaches to common situations, even if they do not use them themselves, so that they can assist or advise others who do. This is not the blinkered system that you imply
My response: Your words entirely. I referred to a 22 mins instruction in wing clipping. To may people's minds clipping the wings of a queen be is crazy, nor does it, as I have seen on may occasions, prevent swarming.

You:
Quote:
Originally Posted by heidiherrmann
As the BBKA teaching agenda moves to a greater emphasis on beekeeping as conservation
I don't know where you get this from, the implication being that beekeepers and the BBKA in particular have been uninterested in conservation. Clearly beekeepers have been providing an environmental service for centuries without shouting about it...

I said the BBKA, not beekeepers in general, and as stated above, getting sponsored by pesticide manufacrurers is a sure-fire way to lose your conservation credentials

You:
Quote:
Originally Posted by heidiherrmann
as I gained experience I gradually removed myself, as Bayvarol treatments, autumn harvests of every drop of honey as well as queen clipping became the new religion.
To replace it with the religion of biodynamics? Bayvarol treatments became the norm in response to huge colony die-offs over the winters of '96 and '97, as varroa started to bite. Bayvarol & Apistan prevented a catastrophic loss in honeybee numbers, allowing time for others to investigate 'softer' treatments. I wouldn't have anticipated such an outcome if our preferred varroa treatment had been to sprinkle the ashes of burnt mites over the colonies to teach the mites that they are not welcome... at most it would have been as (in)effective as icing sugar dusting provided the ash were fine enough.

My response: In case you were not aware, biodynamics is the oldest form of organic agriculture, not a religion. Bayvarol produced resistant mites - something I foresaw, any anyone could have foreseen, and the BBKA certainly should have foreseen. They did not. I stopped using it against the exhortations of my then bee inspector and chose oxalic acid evaporation instead, when it was still illegal here, but used in Germany, I am going into this kind of detail to demonstrate to you, that contrary to what you may think, I consider my actions carefully, and find that some of them are just a little ahead of their time. No-treatment will become the norm in times to come, because nobody will consider it intelligent to be on a treatment treadmill FOREVER. Not treating one's bees requires complementary measures which many are not yet prepared to consider.

You: Autumn harvests have always been the norm. What's changed is that it isn't viable to put supers on in April and then return to take them off in August - some intervention in between is now required.

My response: What has changed is that the bees are knackered by all sorts of human-caused degradation and need to be treated differently if we want them to stay around.

You:
Who takes every drop of honey? Gross caricature again; perhaps you have been watching too many documentaries on US or Chinese factory beekeeping

My response: I consider that quite a rude insinuation. Firstly, I do not watch television, secondly, I have attended many meetings where virtually every drop of honey was taken, and I frequently hear from beekeeping students that they still witness such actions . Did I say everyone takes every drop of honey? No I did not.

You: As I have said many times before, commercial beekeeping practice in other parts of the world is far removed from that which occurs in the UK - just as their scale and model of agriculture, which to a degree defines the approach to beekeeping - is far removed from ours.

My response: Should we be proud of the fact we don't engage in the travesty of US style almond pollination and associatied bee abuse?

You: I'm genuinely happy for you that you think your methods are so appealing and successful, but please check your facts before making pronouncements, and please do not use fictitious bogey-men in support of your case

My response: "]My methods appeal to my bees, and I certainly do not expect that they should appeal to you, Finally, please note that I have desisted from referring to any of your statements as "rubbish", firstly, because uncouth rudeness is not my style, and secondly, to demonstrate how to remain calm and collected under provocation. I fully understand that some of my views provoke you, but this should not stop us from talking politely with each other. How about a talk-show some time in the future, should the media remain interested in beekeepers' viewpoints?

Best wishes
Heidi
 
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I was thinking of putting some swarm traps out this year in the wood behind my house, I was hoping to hoist them up a little into the trees. I was a little worried about the swaying.

It looks like those sun hives are hanging so I assume the swaying really isn't an issue?
 
Thanks.


I'm surprised you don't rig up a platform of some sort, it would be easier for the beekeeper to move around a bit, if they need to.


What are the boxes that look as if they are directly on top of the hanging hives?


The boxes on top are supers, used for feeding at time of foto, and no, standing on a ladder is not a safe option; however, hope is nigh ... have been approached by a Dutch beekeeping group willing to come over to build me a nice practical stand with steps leading up to a platform.
 
Overall a nice article Heidi.
Did you get a chance to proof read it ?
It sort of lost credibility a bit with the first sentence claiming honey bees are an endangered species and seemed a bit "holier than thou" towards conventional beekeepers, but congrats are in order for getting more in the national press about bee friendly planting.

A chance to proofread it?
 
SIMONCAV wrote.....without something like the mRNA approach currently being worked on at Aberdeen University and elsewhere - assuming it works...





Please Simoncav add some more about this... did read a bit about it in Breeding better Bees
Cheers
 
have been approached by a Dutch beekeeping group willing to come over to build me a nice practical stand with steps leading up to a platform.

For free?
 
For free?

Yes, for free, they are keen to help me make the sun hive work ... my present set-up is lovely to look at, and even has a bench all round to sit and watch the bess coming and going, but the ladder thing is a bit scary sometimes, as the floor is York stone and not very even. These guys have built stands for schools. so I am looking forward to it!
 
Frpm Simoncav: "What I really object to is people who promote "Natural Beekeeping" as a means of keeping bees to complete beginners over a weekend who typically live in suburban areas. It is not fair on them, their bees and other colonies around them to simply get a colony of bees and then leave them alone. Almost all of them will die out in the first year or two whilst acting as a disease vector of Varroa, EFB and AFB to other beekeepers colonies in the locality. If they swarm, its up to that beekeeper to at least attempt to re-house them rather than allowing them to upset and annoy the neighbours, giving us all a bad name."

I entirely concur with you that nobody should be given the illusion of learning beekeeping in a weekend and advised to leave their bees alone. What I object to is that so-called natural beekeepers are so often accused of leaving their bees unattended. This point is covered on the home page of the NBKT's website. I contend that the majority of people who have attended our courses spend an above average amount of time with their colonies and are extremely well informed about the intricacies of colony life.

And the accusation of supplying disease vectors for others is possibly a little unfair; the majority of EFB outbreaks in my area in recent years occurred in conventional apiaries. Whatever views we hold, I think that we can agree that stressed colonies are less successful in resisting disease. It is up to every individual beekeeper to work out what stresses their colonies and try and do something about it.

Swarms: It goes without saying that responsible beekeeping encompasses taking care of swarms. Having collected onehundred and twenty myself in the last 12 years I reckon I am doing my bit, not to speak of teaching many hundreds of others how to go about it. It is not by accident that my neighbours and in fact, the entire local community, are extremely well clued up about bees and swarming. What sometimes amazes me is the fact that some people take such pains to prevent swarming of their own colonies but are extremely keen to make up their colony losses wit other people's swarms.

Teaching practice: What amazes me even more are some of the skills that the Basic Asessment syllabus requires students to demonstrate. For this reason I cannot go along with your suggestion that people should learn the "proper" way first, reasonable though your suggestions as well as your liberal attitude to "natural" beekeepers doubtlessly are in the main.

Best wishes
Heidi
 
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Teaching practice: What amazes me even more are some of the skills that the Basic Asessment syllabus requires students to demonstrate. For this reason I cannot go along with your suggestion that people should learn the "proper" way first, reasonable though your suggestions as well as your liberal attitude to "natural" beekeepers doubtlessly are in the main.

Best wishes
Heidi

Which skills amaze you please? As a lead tutor on a (free) current course leading to the (optional) Basic assessment I would like to know.

Here is the syllabus for your information:

1.0 MANIPULATION OF A HONEYBEE COLONY The Candidate will be aware of:
1.1 the care needed when handling a colony of honeybees;
1.2 the reactions of honeybees to smoke;
1.3 the personal equipment needed to open a colony of honeybees and the importance of its cleanliness;
1.4 the reasons for opening a colony;
1.5 the need for stores
1.6 the importance of record keeping
The Candidate will be able to:
1.7 open a colony of honeybees and keep the colony under control
1.8 demonstrate lighting and the use of the smoker;
1.9 demonstrate the use of the hive tool;
1.10 remove combs from the hive and identify worker, drone and queen cells or cups if present,and to comment on the state of the combs;
1.11 identify the female castes and the drone;
1.12 identify brood at all stages;
1.13 demonstrate the difference between drone, worker and honey cappings;
1.14 identify stored nectar, honey and pollen;
1.15 take a sample of worker bees in a match box or similar container;
1.16 state the number of worker bees required for an adult disease diagnosis sample;
1.17 demonstrate how to shake bees from a comb and how to look for signs of brood disease.
2.0 EQUIPMENT The Candidate will be:
2.1 able to name and explain the function of the principal parts of a modern beehive;
2.2 aware of the concept of the bee space and its significance in the modern beehive;
2.3 able to assemble a frame and fit it with wax foundation;
2.4 aware of the reasons for the use of wax foundation;
2.5 aware of the spacing of the combs in the brood chamber and super for both foundation and drawn comb and methods used to achieve this spacing.
3.0 NATURAL HISTORY OF THE HONEYBEE The Candidate will be:
3.1 able to give an elementary account of the development of queens. workers and drones in the honeybee colony ;
3.2 able to state the periods spent by the female castes and the drone in the four stages of their life (egg, larva, pupa and adult);
3.3 able to give an elementary description of the function of the queen, worker and drone in the life of the colony;
3.4 able to give a simple description of wax production and comb building by the honeybee;
3.5 aware of the importance of pollination to flowering plants and consequently to farmers and growers;
3.6 able to name the main local flora from which honeybees gather pollen and nectar;
3.7 able to give a simple definition of nectar and a simple description of how it is collected, brought back to the hive and is converted into honey;
3.8 able to give a simple description of the collection and use of pollen, water and propolis in the honeybee colony;
3.9 able to give an elementary description of swarming in a honeybee colony;
3.10 able to give an elementary description of the way in which the honeybee colony passes the winter.
4.0 BEEKEEPING The Candidate will be:
4.1 able to give an elementary description of how to set up an apiary;
4.2 able to describe what precautions should be taken to avoid the honeybees being a nuisance to neighbours and livestock;
4.3 able to describe the possible effects of honeybee stings on humans and able to recommend suitable first aid treatment;
4.4 able to give an elementary description of the annual cycle of work in the apiary;
4.5 able to describe the preparation of sugar syrup and how and when to feed bees;
4.6 aware of the need to add supers and the timing of the operation;
4.7 able to give an elementary account of one method of swarm control;
4.8 able to describe how to take a honeybee swarm and how to hive it;
4.9 able to describe the signs of a queenless colony and how to test if a colony is queenless;
4.10 able to describe the signs of laying workers and of a drone laying queen;
4.11 able to describe a simple method of queen introduction;
4.12 aware of the dangers of robbing and how robbing can be avoided;
4.13 able to describe one method of uniting colonies;
4.14 aware of the reasons for uniting bees and the precautions to he taken;
4.15 able to describe a method used to clear honeybees from supers;
able to describe the process of extracting honey from combs and a method of straining and
4.16 bottling of honey suitable for a small scale beekeeper;
4.17 aware of the need for good hygiene in the handling of honey for human consumption;
4.18 aware of the legal requirements for the labelling and sale of honey;
4.19 able to give an elementary account of the harvesting of beeswax;
4.20 aware of the need for good apiary hygiene;
4.21 aware of the need for regular brood comb replacement.
4.22 aware of the various web based resources relating to beekeeping such as BBKA and Beebase.
5.0 DISEASE AND PESTS The Candidate will be:
5.1 able to describe the appearance of healthy brood; able to describe the signs of the bacterial diseases American Foul Brood (AFB) and European Foul Brood (EFB), the fungal disease Chalk Brood and the viral disease Sacbrood;
5.2 able to describe methods for detecting and monitoring the presence of varroa (a mite) and
5.3 describe its effect on the colony including awareness of the effect of associated viruses;
5.4 aware of acarine (a mite) and nosema (a fungus) and their effect upon the colony;
5.5 able to describe ways of controlling varroa using integrated pest management techniques;
5.6 aware of the current legislation regarding notifiable diseases and pests of honeybees;
5.7 aware of whom to contact to verify disease and advise on treatment;
5.8 able to describe how comb can be stored to prevent wax moth damage;
5.9 able to describe how mice and other pests can be excluded from the hives in winter.
 
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Yes, for free, they are keen to help me make the sun hive work

I'll accept that as a good enough reason for not using local labour then, but shouldnt have thought that paying for it would pose much of a problem if people are paying £120 to be shown how to make something which looks to be something not too far removed from being a laundry basket.
No insult intended and I have no objections to what you are doing, but I find some of what you say about taking honey and feeding sort of rather contradictory.

To my way of thought there is no such thing as "natural beekeeeping" Not Warre hives or TBH's.

If you have bees in a wooden box, a poly box, or wicker basket which you collected as a swarm or were given or purchased, you are a beekeeper.
If you have bees on your property that swarmed into your wheelie bin or chimney/greenhouse/tree trunk, and you do not interfere or manage or inspect them, the bees are living naturally, but you are not their keeper.
If I have rabbits/pigs/budgies in cages I am their keeper, I feed them and clean thier home, but if they lived on my land by their own choice I am not their keeper.
Keeping is not natural.
 

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