Natural or Unmanaged?

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I run TBHs and splits and inspections are something I do rarely. As for swarm suppression.. yes it is possible with TBHs but I prefer to observe bee behaviour , anticipate the swarms and catch them when they do emerge.

So far I have lost one - sorry I lie - two out of eight : one disappeared over the local school and into woods - lost completely. And the other went exactly the opposite way into more woods...

As for chimney screening, there are about two thousand houses within a one mile radius and 150 more being built.. Hmm... not that wealthy and I hate heights.... :)
 
If you stand by this statement:

Yes, I think he was referring to queen clipping (20 mins instruction in "Course in a case") and breaking out cells - but it must be said that he was not in the best of states as I had just asked him before a distnguished gathering of leading environmentalists and lawyers about the Bayer connection, and he was flustered and keen to search for common ground with me.

It was perhaps unfair to previously present the following without offering the context:

As for fringe ideas, I once asked Martin Smith, erstwhile BBKA chair (?) whether he practised swarm suppression and he assured me that this was the preserve of a certain fringe of die-hards etc, and that he did not practise it as it did not work.

I only mention this as (having allowed myself to assume that 'swarm suppression' is your standard phrase for swarm control) it means that I'll now be questioning everything you write if it involves a.n.other just incase you've forgotten to mention something important.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for all your interesting submissions. I would like to respond, but feel that this discussion should be under a different thread, "swarming" or "apicentric beekeeping" maybe in order to let conversation return to the original theme? Probably my fault, entirely to deflect it, but can be remedied.
Just a quickie before people submit funding bids to me, there are no immense riches to report, I regret to say, but a great richness in wonderful supportive neighbours and a wider community grateful for everything beekeepers round here do, including collecting swarms from inconvenient places.
 
Last edited:
If there were no managed hives, I wonder how much honey would be for sale.
 
There are some interesting comments on that article, some very interesting. There does seem to be a bizarre hatred for the BBKA which appears on par with the BNP to some.
 
What's at all "bizarre" about loathing an organisation which in secret arranged a deal with the pesticide companies to accept funding from them in return for allowing them to label some of their toxins as "bee friendly"? That same organisation then decided that after this lunacy was exposed that they'd twist, turn, and use their arcane rulebook to try to silence debate to try to keep the deal going, who censored any discussion on their forum that wasn't in favour of the liaison, or ban anyone who dared to speak out. When the clamour became too great, they suddenly dumped the deal, and instead climbed into bed with the CPA (Big Pestco's propaganda wing) - since that time there have been no apologies, no retractions, no resignations and no reform of the ludicrous system that allowed such a travesty.......
In view of that little lot, I think it "bizarre" not to question their validity as being "the voice of UK beekeeping".........
 
In view of that little lot, I think it "bizarre" not to question their validity as being "the voice of UK beekeeping".........

Who or what is?
Most "groups" ... possibly including this forum seem to be anti something or other beewise!

Live and let live... if someone wants to put out to sea in a tar barrel, let them go!
( as my Grandmother used to say)
 
"When the clamour became too great, they suddenly dumped the deal, and instead climbed into bed with the CPA (Big Pestco's propaganda wing) - since that time there have been no apologies, no retractions, no resignations and no reform of the ludicrous system that allowed such a travesty......."

Well said Martin, and I would add that the deal was dropped about eight weeks after the meeting with leading environmentalists and lawyers I referred to earlier - cannot tell you how non-plussed they were to learn of the BBKA/Bayer deal. Anyway, that's now history, thank God, but the sad fact remains that notwithstanding the many thousand decent and experienced beekeepers affiliated to the organisation the official teaching agenda still encompasses a staggering variety of husbandry advice which i.m.h.o is inimical to the welfare as well as recovery of the bee population. But things are changing. Judging by the incredible number of invitations extended to natural beekeeping representatives to speak at local associations about apicentric husbandry there is pressure from BBKA members in many localities to take the viewpoints of others into account. I myself have been encouraged to submit articles to the bbka magazine, and so have many others in the apicentric community. My commitment to running a vast number of colonies as well as monitoring a growing number of feral nests in Sussex besides the work of our charity and teaching commitments do not allow much time for writing. As the BBKA teaching agenda moves to a greater emphasis on beekeeping as conservation my organisation will be able to concentrate on work other than advising the rather large numbers of people who approach us because they have been thoroughly put off by approaches encountered in what may be loosely termed "mainstream" circles. Having trained as a conventional beekeeper myself I have very fond memories of some of the grand elderly gentlemen and their wealth of wisdom who helped me invaluably, but as I gained experience I gradually removed myself, as Bayvarol treatments, autumn harvests of every drop of honey as well as queen clipping became the new religion. I am confident that in beekeeping things are changing for the better as more and more people become painfully aware of the awful depredations of Nature as a consequence of human greed. The bees have a wonderful way to reach straight into people's hearts. We ourselves are responsible for the deteriorating life conditions of the honeybee, and therefore our duty of care (and obligation to make amends) is very great.

Heidi
 
Live and let live... if someone wants to put out to sea in a tar barrel, let them go!
( as my Grandmother used to say)

Brilliant; cheers to your grandmother, this made my day!
 
Well meaning people who begin beekeeping with really good intentions to benefit the environment and practice natural, treatment free, non/minimal harvesting methods quite often leave beekeeping with a depressing bump when their bees die.
I find it strange that so many new to beekeeping join this "green" craft and immediately try and do it "greener" or more naturally than the stalwarts who've been successfully beekeeping for years. The idea that the conventional old guard want to abuse their bees by tipping in chemicals and nicking every bit of honey is a total misconception in my experience and new beekeepers would be better served learning from the old hands rather than trying to reinvent the wheel all the time,
(only a less efficient "greener" less likely to succeed wheel.)
 
Last edited:
"from the old handsgood" - yes, agreed, best to learn beekeeping from people who have successfully practised for a good number of year and can show many long-lived healthy colonies; many such people are what might be termed "natural" beekeepers.
 
:iagree:

I find it amazing that many of these "Natural Beekeepers" seem to think in their arrogance that only they are the saviours of the honeybee and that all other practices are somehow bad for bees.

What these people fail to recognise is that European honey bees have no natural defence against Varroa and it does wipe out huge numbers of colonies either directly or indirectly.

Yes, a few colonies sometimes exhibit "hygienic" behaviour, but studies in the US and elsewhere have shown that around 70-80% of the workforce in a colony need to show that trait to be of any use in reducing Varroa. Breeding bees to keep that trait in the wild is damn near impossible unless you can completely control the genetic profile of almost all drones in the immediate area.

So, thats why the sensible majority of us take a "Benign Beekeeping" approach, minimising intervention and using non-chemical treatments for Varroa and other pests. But, we are only holding our own against Varroa and we will never be able to eradicate this man-introduced pest without something like the mRNA approach currently being worked on at Aberdeen University and elsewhere - assuming it works...

So, the facts are that the VAST majority of beekeepers have the best interest of their bees at heart and do the best they can for them at all times. We are a broad church and there is room for a wide variety of viewpoints. We welcome "Natural Beekeepers" in our association, BUT a non-intervention approach requires a higher level of skill and experience to understand what is going on inside the hive by observing the bees from outside.

Like most associations, we teach our new beekeepers a standard approach over the first two seasons and encourage them to take the BBKA Basic Assessment to give them the confidence to realise they are up to a certain level of knowledge. After that they are very welcome to take their own path forward including "Natural Beekeeping" based on a basic level of knowledge and understanding supported by like minded mentors.

What I really object to is people who promote "Natural Beekeeping" as a means of keeping bees to complete beginners over a weekend who typically live in suburban areas. It is not fair on them, their bees and other colonies around them to simply get a colony of bees and then leave them alone. Almost all of them will die out in the first year or two whilst acting as a disease vector of Varroa, EFB and AFB to other beekeepers colonies in the locality. If they swarm, its up to that beekeeper to at least attempt to re-house them rather than allowing them to upset and annoy the neighbours, giving us all a bad name.

So, not natural but benign... The bees always come first, but intervention is sometimes inevitable and we need well-educated beekeepers supported by experienced mentors to keep our bees happy and healthy.

I'll shut up now....
 
"from the old handsgood" - yes, agreed, best to learn beekeeping from people who have successfully practised for a good number of year and can show many long-lived healthy colonies; many such people are what might be termed "natural" beekeepers.

I'm sure it suits your cause to paint conventional beekeeping methods as unnatural... :rolleyes: If "many such" beekeepers used methods you approved of, there would be no need to promote "natural" beekeeping, would there?

Sorry Heidi, but you're talking rubbish with experienced beekeepers in the room. Many have bitten their tongues out of politeness so far but the exchange on swarming yesterday showed that you are trying their patience, yet you simply sidestepped their polite, well reasoned comments and questions.
 
I would add that the deal was dropped about eight weeks after the meeting with leading environmentalists and lawyers I referred to earlier - cannot tell you how non-plussed they were to learn of the BBKA/Bayer deal.

I wouldn't view the two events as cause and effect. The pesticides endorsement was a thorn in the BBKA's side long before then. I have explained previously here how this came about and that the people involved are all long resigned/retired from the BBKA hierarchy. Martin chooses not to listen because it suits his campaign - for instance he loves to slur Tim Lovett but the man wasn't on the scene when this happened, and was part of the Exec that exited an inherited commercial agreement at the earliest opportunity whilst incurring neither animosity nor cost.

but the sad fact remains that notwithstanding the many thousand decent and experienced beekeepers affiliated to the organisation the official teaching agenda still encompasses a staggering variety of husbandry advice which i.m.h.o is inimical to the welfare as well as recovery of the bee population.

Wrong again. I am an examiner, and also an author of some of the teaching materials you refer to here (and elsewhere recently in a similar vein). It may suit you to state that the BBKA teaches swarm suppression, etc., but it does not. The examiner's mantra is that if the student can demonstrate and explain an appropriate and successful method, it is accepted even if it is not a common method. This comes up every time swarm control is discussed, for instance - and anyone who performs the swarm suppression by queen cell knock-down (that you believe is taught) will fail. From the General Husbandry certificate upwards, candidate are required to be familiar with and demonstrate a number of approaches to common situations, even if they do not use them themselves, so that they can assist or advise others who do. This is not the blinkered system that you imply.


As the BBKA teaching agenda moves to a greater emphasis on beekeeping as conservation

I don't know where you get this from, the implication being that beekeepers and the BBKA in particular have been uninterested in conservation. Clearly beekeepers have been providing an environmental service for centuries without shouting about it...

as I gained experience I gradually removed myself, as Bayvarol treatments, autumn harvests of every drop of honey as well as queen clipping became the new religion.

To replace it with the religion of biodynamics? Bayvarol treatments became the norm in response to huge colony die-offs over the winters of '96 and '97, as varroa started to bite. Bayvarol & Apistan prevented a catastrophic loss in honeybee numbers, allowing time for others to investigate 'softer' treatments. I wouldn't have anticipated such an outcome if our preferred varroa treatment had been to sprinkle the ashes of burnt mites over the colonies to teach the mites that they are not welcome... at most it would have been as (in)effective as icing sugar dusting provided the ash were fine enough.

Autumn harvests have always been the norm. What's changed is that it isn't viable to put supers on in April and then return to take them off in August - some intervention in between is now required.

Who takes every drop of honey? Gross caricature again; perhaps you have been watching too many documentaries on US or Chinese factory beekeeping. As I have said many times before, commercial beekeeping practice in other parts of the world is far removed from that which occurs in the UK - just as their scale and model of agriculture, which to a degree defines the approach to beekeeping - is far removed from ours.

I'm genuinely happy for you that you think your methods are so appealing and successful, but please check your facts before making pronouncements, and please do not use fictitious bogey-men in support of your case :)
 
Last edited:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardenin...ping-could-save-our-honey-making-friends.html

An interesting article, but the accompanying pictures are a little confusing because two of them show what appear to be standard boxes. Some are arranged around a pool, whilst others look as if they're sitting on top of the hanging hives.

Could somebody explain what I'm seeing, please?

The sunhive['s] ... construction makes the hives fully inspectable
and
Crucially, the hive is intended to be positioned at least 2.5 metres above the ground

How are inspections safely done at that height above the ground?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top