Natural England article on 'Non/Native' bees?

[0bee-1]

this paper is well written and the conclusions well balanced and could be used in any bid for a would be(e) beekeeper if met with concern over honeybees on nature reserves ... Pitting Wild Bees Against Managed Honey Bees in Their Native Range, a Losing Strategy for the Conservation of Honey Bee Biodiversity

" rather than creating opposition between managed honey bees and wild pollinators, and creating conflicts between stakeholders, we need to find ways to reconcile wild pollinator conservation with responsible and sustainable beekeeping practices in natural and/or protected areas of the honey bee native range (e.g., conservation areas for local honey bees). Therefore, before considering any exclusion of managed honey bees from their native and natural habitats, we should start with conservation policies that place priority on the restoration of native habitats to support all bees, managed and wild."

 

[Wilco]

So much to learn are there genetic linkages between Welsh and Irish bees?? (given Dutch French bee genetics have been detected)

If they originally came from Europe and have had more Dutch bees added, do you think this is all load of double Dutch?

 

[Apiarist]

Thank you for the help guys,
I think my confusion has (partially) been caused by a change of names,
Natural England's (formally called English Nature) magazine is called Conservation Land Management (formally called Enact), etc; I've been looking for the wrong 'publishers' name, thanks 0bee-1 for pointing me in the right direction.

Anyway, I've located the relevant article in the archive section, and I will now see if they are able to provide a back copy.

For those interested their website is
https://www.conservationlandmanagement.co.uk

 

[Lislarybees]

Hi i think the confusion stems for this article in the Conservation and Land Managment (honeybees on nature reserves 5(2):16-17; 6(2):20)
RANDALL, R; SHEPPARD, D (2007) To bee or not to bee? Honey bees on nature
reserves. Conservation Land Management, Summer 2007: 16–17.

Dave Sheppard was (not sure he works for NE anymore) worked as an ecoloogist/entomologist for English Nature now NE. this is where the NE angle has come from regarding honeybees as native and on nature reserves. I am not sure it is actually NE policy as i certainly know of one NE employee who keeps honeybee hives on an NNR (National Nature Reserve).

it is very much down to the view of local NE Site Managers and whether they feel it appropriate for their reserve. I could be wrong but can ask my contacts at NE locally and update here. working for a large conservation charity which does where possible support beekeeping there is usually a bit of paperwork to complete (i have hives on one of my sites) like all things in life just ask and see where it gets you

on the issue of native honeybees I have read several papers on this (inc one above) and have no doubt that honeybees colonised before the land bridge was lost between our islands and continental Europe. if frogs and reptiles could do it why not honeybees..!?!. except Ireland...
Ireland is the only place i do wonder about and bees could have possibly been introduced ... but a long time ago! not read any research on that happy to be proved wrong
Steve

How did frogs and reptiles reach Ireland then?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

frogs can swim. As can lizards

 

[Arfermo]

Thanks for that Link, but this is one of the Articles in which I came across this "claim", although in this case the "claim" is not directly attributed to Natural England, here's the sentence "Although it has been claimed that the Romans brought bees to Britain,"

This is something I find very frustrating with beekeeping publications, people who make a claim in their paper/essay but then give NO actual source for such a claim! Actually I'm one of those sad people that read the cited sources to get additional info. only to find that on some occasions the cited source does not say what it is claimed to say, in some occasions it says the opposite!

Bloody Romans brought ground elder here too I believe. Thought it was an edible veggie?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[Arfermo]

frogs can swim. As can lizards

Breast stroke or crawl?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

frogs can swim. As can lizards

Does salt water affect them?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Does salt water affect them?

No idea, never asked them, but when I was singing I always found a salt water gargle good for a croaky voice

 

[Murox]

Does salt water affect them?

Marine iguanas are currently the only sea swimming lizard, who knows what was around previously.

 

[0bee-1]

Does salt water affect them?

yes it kills amphibians ... Osmoregulation

 

[0bee-1]

How did frogs and reptiles reach Ireland then?

Ah think you misread my post... they did of course get to ireland because they walked or hopped before the sea level rose as did red squirresl and pine martins... my question was if these species made it why not honeybees to Ireland which can travel alot quicker than a frog.!!
Natterjack toads distribution is really interesting in Ireland ... restricted to south west Lusitianian type climate must have crawled along the coasts of Europe when continous with what is now ireland. there is also the Kerry slug... which is found in Spain Portugal and Ireland...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_slug However the case of the accidentally introduced bank vole in ireland indicates how quickly a species can spread if the habitat is right... Voles away!
Steve

 

[0bee-1]

 

[Apiarist]

... they walked or hopped before the sea level rose as did red squirresl and pine martins... my question was if these species made it why not honeybees to Ireland which can travel alot quicker than a frog.!!

Unfortunately that map (Post #34) is now quite outdated.

This research paper is very good:
http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/ha...d=37D3E595A904F39A39A571C1E59DAADC?sequence=1here is a key sentence;
"The resulting reconstructions suggest that Ireland was separated from Britain by c. 16 000 calendar years ago, at which time climate was still cold and local ice caps persisted in parts of the country. No support is found for the idea that a Holocene land-bridge was instrumental in the migration of temperate flora and fauna into Ireland."

And another Paper, referencing a 1983 conference!
https://www.academia.edu/3113149"Lack of known endemics, they believed, cautioned against the glacial refugia idea" (quoted from the 1983 conference)

Bottom line - Ireland was never united with Britain in our human era... geographically at least... politically, err let's not start that one

 

[Lislarybees]

Ah think you misread my post... they did of course get to ireland because they walked or hopped before the sea level rose as did red squirresl and pine martins... my question was if these species made it why not honeybees to Ireland which can travel alot quicker than a frog.!!
Natterjack toads distribution is really interesting in Ireland ... restricted to south west Lusitianian type climate must have crawled along the coasts of Europe when continous with what is now ireland. there is also the Kerry slug... which is found in Spain Portugal and Ireland...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_slug However the case of the accidentally introduced bank vole in ireland indicates how quickly a species can spread if the habitat is right... Voles away!
Steve

Hi O-bee1 Everything in your post makes absolute sense and yet you have people making out that it was monks that brought bees to Ireland. And the question for me is why do they do that. What is their agenda?
If all these species did reach Ireland in that time period then honeybees certainly did. I find it really hard to get my head around how otherwise reasonable people will invent and propagate stories to justify keeping non-native or effectively invasive sup species of bees or hybridised bees. Would they try to do that with any other naturally occurring species or subspecies of animal/insect or plant - but bees for some reason are different?

As I understand it there will be parts of Europe where introgression would naturally occur - where for example the natural range of apis mellifera carnica and apis mellifera mellifera meet. Although from studies that I have read there seems to be some limiting factors to the level of introgression that occurs. For bee keepers in those areas the issue is more complicated.

Or in countries such as Finland as Finman explained in a post there was historically no naturally occurring honey bee population. For bee keepers then the choice is much easier. Keep whatever bee suits your needs. For regions though where there is/was a native subspecies of honeybee I believe that is the bee that should be kept. And for the UK it would be possible to achieve within a relatively short time if imports were stopped. In Ireland it is what the majority of bee keepers are aiming for but a small minority make that very difficult.

Have a read of these pages on wikipedia to see what an active disinformation campaign by an Irish Buckfast breeder looks like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeke...by the mid-1700s,the bees, were being devised.

or this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dark_bee
Would you say either of these contributions was created from a balanced perspective?

Unfortunately many people trust what they read on wikipedia

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Keep whatever bee suits your needs.

I'm glad you agree.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would you say either of these contributions was created from a balanced perspective?

does yours?

 

[Lislarybees]

Unfortunately that map (Post #34) is now quite outdated.

This research paper is very good:
http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/ha...d=37D3E595A904F39A39A571C1E59DAADC?sequence=1here is a key sentence;
"The resulting reconstructions suggest that Ireland was separated from Britain by c. 16 000 calendar years ago, at which time climate was still cold and local ice caps persisted in parts of the country. No support is found for the idea that a Holocene land-bridge was instrumental in the migration of temperate flora and fauna into Ireland."

And another Paper, referencing a 1983 conference!
https://www.academia.edu/3113149"Lack of known endemics, they believed, cautioned against the glacial refugia idea" (quoted from the 1983 conference)

Bottom line - Ireland was never united with Britain in our human era... geographically at least... politically, err let's not start that one

So this one paper believes 'On the basis of these simulations, it is now perhaps best to regard the absence of a land-bridge as a probability, at least when considering the Late Glacial and Holocene periods during which the migration of plants, animals and people have been traditionally associated' - so they believe that probably this is the case. But notwithstanding this - if there was no land bridge then how did Ireland become populated with its current flora and fauna?

 

[Lislarybees]

I'm glad you agree.

I do if you live in Finland