Name and shame bad management"

[susbees]

Because NZ does not have the same bugs and viruses that Australia has, as far as i know,plus the bees from NZ are more likely to be able to tolerate varroa slightly better than bees that have never had them.

Sorry, I thought the thread was about AFB/EFB not varroa...

 

[Hivemaker.]

Sorry, I thought the thread was about AFB/EFB not varroa...

Thats okay,no need to apologise,if you read post 18 you will see it was an add on, while Ron is onto the NBU.
The thread is titled...........Name and shame bad management"
Threads often tend to wander away from the question in the OP,but no problem with that usually.

 

[Teemore]

Bad Management...
I had a Spring visit from the bee inspector who recounted the story of a 2010 Inspection carried out on the property of a chap who was selling Nucs. The inspector had an inkling that he had not been shown all the colonies the chap had and returned at a later date. On this occasion the beekeeper was not around and the inspector found some old discarded comb thrown at the back of a hedge. Bad management in itself. The comb had a few tell tale 'signs' and subsequent lab testing confirmed the presence of AFB. 20 Nucs then 'appeared' that were due to be shipped off to GB and they were riddled with AFB. The NI bee inspectors, NBU and seasonal bee inspectors then had to do a lot of legwork to track down nucs that had already been sold. I would imagine that this chap had a standstill order put in place. The inspector didn't name this beekeeper but I already knew the story and his name - the grapevine is great!! The icing on the cake is that I have just heard that this chap plans to import Carnolian bees in 2012 and has permission from a landowner to place bait hives on the doorstep of the apiaries of three of my friends: he does know about two of these apiaries. He plans to use the swarms to make up Nucs for sale with the imported Carnolian Queens. He hasn't the courtesy to even approach these other beekeepers to ask if they mind him bringing bait hives into the area. With his past record on disease recognition, I really would not like to have his bait hives within a hound's gowl of any of mine.

 

[newportbuzz]

He hasn't the courtesy to even approach these other beekeepers to ask if they mind him bringing bait hives into the area. With his past record on disease recognition, I really would not like to have his bait hives within a hound's gowl of any of mine.

Is that really fair? Surly if you dont lose a swarm you deserve to keep your bees and if you do then its better in someones bait hive than in your neighbours chimney or eves.




as for approachin a beek to put up baithives i think if you try it the beek in question will feel TARGETED.

 

[ron]

Teemore

Exactley what im talking about

but HOW do we stop it?

 

[Teemore]

Newportbuzz,
A swarm of bees belongs to whomever hives them and I have no problem with that so yes, it is better to have a swarm go into someone's bait hive than into a neighbours chimney. In this case part of the problem is that this chap has targetted exactly where he is placing his hives. It is over twenty miles from where he lives. The second element of the problem is his track record with AFB and I am given to understand that he uses old black comb in his bait hives.... also, remember that he failed to present all his colonies to the bee inspector in the past.

Ron,
Controlling these problems sits with the bee inspectors (and the NBU): in some cases I feel that they need greater powers of enforcement. There is a dimension of education needed also in terms of good colony management, especially disease recognition. Local plus National associations and individuals have a huge role to play here through the provision of appropriate mentoring and training (whether students are formally examined or not). This forum is a further resource that can serve to enlighten people about what is good or best practice and about disease recognition. Conferences also have a role to play.
In the scenario I mentioned above, I will be having a chat with the bee inspector about the impending presence of the bait hives. There are a number of other factors at play here which I'll keep off the open forum.

 

[johnfly]

Teemore
you have the nail on the head of the hammer, but who and where do you dive it home to, nobody is listening in power

 

[Hivemaker.]

nobody is listening in power

Who have you been in contact with that is in power,and what was their reply?

 

[Teemore]

England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have comparable strategies that seek to sustain and maintain a population of healthy honeybees - in NI it is known as the Strategy for the Sustainability of the Honeybee. There are working groups focusing on particular aspects of the strategy such as the competence/education of beekeepers, communication, disease etc. The minutes of the regional groups are available online - I think I found them via the FERA website and DARDNI website. Beebase might also have some links. The Scottish Executive sit as interested observers on the working group for England and Wales. From those minutes you can identify who is on the committees and thus you have an avenue to advance your views and hopefully have them given due consideration within the working and implementation groups. If the bee inspectors are to be given teeth and beekeepers are to receive greater information from FERA, NBU and associations, these working groups are going to have to push for the funding to support these things.

In an Northern Ireland context I am in a position whereby I can (through membership of one of my associations) put forwards points for consideration by the Implementation Group on the Strategy for Sustainability of the Honeybee. People involved in the working groups do not want them to be just a talking shop.

 

[newportbuzz]

Newportbuzz,
In this case part of the problem is that this chap has targetted exactly where he is placing his hives. It is over twenty miles from where he lives. The second element of the problem is his track record with AFB and I am given to understand that he uses old black comb in his bait hives.... also, remember that he failed to present all his colonies to the bee inspector in the past.

i have bait hives 30 miles away from my house. and i have over 40 bait hives at the moment and intend to get more. they could be construed as targeted but infact if you look at where i have put them it is where i can, i try to spread them around(no benifit to me to have 10 within 1sq mile). remember i need permision to put one on someones land same as a full hive.
On a side note what if he is targeting your friends or even yourself. Aslong as your swarm prevention is up to scratch he will be wasting his time and effort.


As for black combs. this shouldnt act as a vector for afb even if they are infected. the only way they could is if a swarm occupys the hive(catches afb from the comb) and gets robbed or dies out and leaves honey behind it.
black comb with afb has no reason to be infective to passing bees aslong as there is no honey.
Its bad practise to to use them but if you feel they are infected then call your inspector and get them inspected he should have the power to inspect them.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As for black combs. this shouldnt act as a vector for afb even if they are infected. the only way they could is if a swarm occupys the hive(catches afb from the comb) and gets robbed or dies out and leaves honey behind it.
black comb with afb has no reason to be infective to passing bees aslong as there is no honey.

And as long as there is no pollen in them,or moisture that visiting scout bees may sup up and take back to their colony,or any AFB spores anywhere on the combs these visiting bees may walk on.

 

[newportbuzz]

And as long as there is no pollen in them,or moisture that visiting scout bees may sup up and take back to their colony,or any AFB spores anywhere on the combs these visiting bees may walk on.

why would bees visit a black comb outside of scouting for a new home????

 

[Hivemaker.]

why would bees visit a black comb outside of scouting for a new home????

Perhaps the aroma of wax,pheromone maybe,but they certainly do it,sometimes they even take to doing a wee bit of house work in a pontential new home/bait hive,yet never take up residence,obviously because they find elswhere,or swarming is stopped for other reasons....leave old combs around in bait hives and bees will visit them, even outside of the swarming times of year.......being nosey i suppose,inquisitive.
PS........even the smell of thymol in old combs will atract them,if bees in the area have been fed on this in syrup.

 

[newportbuzz]

Perhaps the aroma of wax,pheromone maybe,but they certainly do it,sometimes they even take to doing a wee bit of house work in a pontential new home/bait hive,yet never take up residence,obviously because they find elswhere,or swarming is stopped for other reasons....leave old combs around in bait hives and bees will visit them, even outside of the swarming times of year.......being nosey i suppose,inquisitive.

fair enough.
on a side note my router turned up this morning so much sawdust will be made.

 

[Hivemaker.]

fair enough.
on a side note my router turned up this morning so much sawdust will be made.

Hope your pleased with it,keep you busy for a while through the winter months,the ones you showed me looked fine.

 

[mbc]

Its bad practise to to use them but if you feel they are infected then call your inspector and get them inspected he should have the power to inspect them.

Not sure about this. A visual inspection could possibly pick up AFB scale if there is any, but there could be spores on comb without visible scales.

 

[DanBee]

Have they improved on the LFD test now Dan,there were some problems with it at one stage i believe,and a sample still had to be sent in for microscopic examination before any action would be taken.

The AFB LFD has been pretty robust since day one, however the EFB one has had some issues of failed tests or false negatives. Investigation showed that the choice of material for the EFB LFD was criticial to avoid swamping with irrelevant material. Thus the practice now is to remove one suspect larva with forceps, gently tease/tear it open on the frame sidebar with the forceps, isolate the creamy gut if present and clearly visible, and transfer just the gut to the buffer solution. I have tried or watched this technique a number of times and it succeeds each time; whereas just dropping an 'iffy' larva into the buffer does not.

 

[DanBee]

England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have comparable strategies that seek to sustain and maintain a population of healthy honeybees - in NI it is known as the Strategy for the Sustainability of the Honeybee. There are working groups focusing on particular aspects of the strategy such as the competence/education of beekeepers, communication, disease etc. The minutes of the regional groups are available online - I think I found them via the FERA website and DARDNI website. Beebase might also have some links. The Scottish Executive sit as interested observers on the working group for England and Wales. From those minutes you can identify who is on the committees and thus you have an avenue to advance your views and hopefully have them given due consideration within the working and implementation groups. If the bee inspectors are to be given teeth and beekeepers are to receive greater information from FERA, NBU and associations, these working groups are going to have to push for the funding to support these things.

I'll make it a little easier for you: I sit on one of the England/Wales Fera Healthy Bees Plan working groups that you describe.

The issue of sale of nucs has been discussed at length, particularly the aspects of poor quality and of poor record keeping. The latter obviously exacerbates the former when trouble arises - as you say inspectors have to do a lot of legwork to locate nucs sold by beekeepers who are reluctant to disclose or who never recorded the information about who they sold to.

The best information a beginner can be given is to ask around to find a reputable supplier - and this applies to far more than just beekeeping. You point out in your example that the local grapevine knows who the iffy beekeeper is and where he operates (and more beyond!) - most beekeeping associations are just the same. This forum is a case in point: beginners taking the time to ask "where should I buy a nuc from" this summer would have seen a number of threads advising extreme caution with a small number of unreliable sellers.

There are a number of issues with coming down hard on a small number of rogues. The first is that there needs to be proof of a knowledge that the colonies were diseased, then that this was concealed. To use a "three strikes and you're out" approach would require changes to legislation, and would risk forcing some fairly shadowy characters further from view. It also needs to be able to deal differently with those who are incompetent or unobservant from those who are deceitful.

Ability to recognise disease is an education issue. Look though at the discussions on education here; many want to learn, but some don't feel the current education routes work, and some simply don't want to be educated or contradicted and will actively resist being told. I often give the advice of "go and spend time with your bee inspector" yet - and this is not a dig at Ron - it seems to fall on deaf ears. There's nothing like seeing foul brood in the field and watching how it is diagnosed - from signs on the comb to LFD results or making up microscope slides - to get your own awareness and recognition up to speed. I do it at least once a year to "keep my eye in" and it's why I had the confidence to stop a demonstration last year and say "This colony has EFB" based on a handful of duff larvae, despite it being a high-profile apiary with foul brood likely to cause some embarrassment.

Equally important is that as soon as bee inspectors are seen as coming in and shutting down beekeepers' operations, other beekeepers will become a lot more wary of them. Imagine the uproar on here, for instance, particularly when anyone who is "anti" rushes to put the boot in. Their current reasonably free access and the perception that they are welcome "health advisors" and not "disease policemen" would be shattered, with much greater consequences for the general health and wellbeing of our bees.

All this has to be balanced to ensure that any response is productive, reasoned, and proportionate.

 

[mbc]

Good post Danbee, however I have a few issues with this approach.
Firstly bee inspectors are in a position of trust and under orders not to divulge beekeepers information to all and sundry. I, for one, am happy to take my bee inspector round to see all my hives but I'd point blank refuse if he wanted to show my out apiaries to Joe public.
Secondly IMHO the only way to bring all ( or most ) of the murky characters out of the woodwork and into the open is to fundamentally change the compensation scheme we have.
At the moment it relies on beekeepers being insured with the BDI through the BBKA. This immediately throws up two problems, namely the BDI and the BBKA ( see thread "Whats the problem with the BBKA??? " and antipathy towards Insurance companies, generally regarded as dishonest organisations).
In my view, it would be far better if beekeepers were compensated fully and directly from FERA for any losses due to foul brood treatment leading to destruction/shook swarming.
This would lead to any beekeepers interested in getting compo registering with beebase and having to cooperate fully with their inspectors.
Isnt it the case that in some Cantons in France, the Agent Sanitere drives around with a van full of new frames and boxes ready to do shook swarms on the spot, take away infected frames to destroy and woodwork to sterilise and return 6 weeks later when he/she does a re inspection, all for free ? This sounds like an eminently sensible approach to me.

 

[Tim1606]

With so many different types of hives used in this country that would be some big van.
Getting everyone on board with that idea sounds good but the problem you have is will everyone register and who will end up paying for it ?


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