modified wally

[Tonyatcwfarm]

Due to the 50% success rate of the Pagden Im planning on using the modified Wally this year if my demaree efforts fail
Im wondering what is the advantage of re uniting the laying queen back into the flying bees hive,why not knock down the queen cells,add this to original colony and just dump the flyers to find new homes within the apiary
Would the swarming fever within these flyers trigger swarming in the hives they gain entry to?
I appreciate there could be disease spreading issues

 

[REDWOOD]

Enlighten me on his method

 

[Brigsy]

Swarming colony box moved to one side. New box placed on original site. Two frames of eggs and brood placed in new box from old colony to make QC's in original location.

Old box in new location with old queen and QC's.

9-10 days later, knock down QC's in queenless colony and place old queen back in.

Leave the now queenless colony to raise a new queen.

Combine or whatever your desire with new queen and colony etc....

 

[Millet]

Swarming colony box moved to one side. New box placed on original site. Two frames of eggs and brood placed in new box from old colony to make QC's in original location.

Old box in new location with old queen and QC's.

9-10 days later, knock down QC's in queenless colony and place old queen back in.

Leave the now queenless colony to raise a new queen.

Combine or whatever your desire with new queen and colony etc....

Is that not a Pagden.

 

[Fatbee]

No sounds like a horizontal Snelgrove 2 rather than doing vertically.

In relation to the original OP how do you intend on dumping the original flyers if the hive stays on the original location? Why don't you just do the Snelgrove 2 - it works. Why tinker?

 

[Brigsy]

Direct from Wally's leaflet. Same system can be done vertically as you say.

The Pagden puts the queen in the new box.

 

[bontbee]

The theory behind this method is that because the artificial swarm (on the original) site has to go through the process of raising (emergency) QCs, the swarming instinct is satisfied - they have done their queen rearing and accept the old queen back again.

It's recommended that the emergency QCs in the artificial swarm are removed when the queen is "repatriated" 9 or 10 days after the split, as these have been raised by old flyers and won't have received ideal feeding.

From the parent colony, on the new site, the foragers return to the original location. The flying force also contains the scout bees, which guide a swarm. The parent colony "realises" there are no scouts to show the way and tears down the QCs. Once the queen has been replaced on the original site, the parent colony raises new, well nourished queen cells, but there's no need to thin them out.

That's the theory. The full version with step by step details is here:

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdf page 17 onwards

You'll see from the article that Wally doesn't find the Pagden very successful but, for him, this is really effective.

 

[Brigsy]

I did this last year and it worked a treat apart from the very last bit of not needing to thin out the QC's in the last queenless parent colony. I ended up with about twenty piping queens, which was interesting to hear, and a battlefield of dead queens. Ended up with no queen and laying workers. I intend to thin out this year, if needed.

 

[Tonyatcwfarm]

The theory behind this method is that because the artificial swarm (on the original) site has to go through the process of raising (emergency) QCs, the swarming instinct is satisfied - they have done their queen rearing and accept the old queen back again.

It's recommended that the emergency QCs in the artificial swarm are removed when the queen is "repatriated" 9 or 10 days after the split, as these have been raised by old flyers and won't have received ideal feeding.

From the parent colony, on the new site, the foragers return to the original location. The flying force also contains the scout bees, which guide a swarm. The parent colony "realises" there are no scouts to show the way and tears down the QCs. Once the queen has been replaced on the original site, the parent colony raises new, well nourished queen cells, but there's no need to thin them out.

That's the theory. The full version with step by step details is here:

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdf page 17 onwards

You'll see from the article that Wally doesn't find the Pagden very successful but, for him, this is really effective.

I am talking about a horizontal movement but I'm wondering about not returning queen (2frames)to the AS side
I'm thinking if I leave queen on new site,return the2 frames(q cells removed) to this hive and then move the AS hive off its position so the flyers will have to find alternative residence within the apiary

 

[bontbee]

I'm not quite sure I follow, but if you're saying you are going to move the parent colony with the queen to a new site and then, at some later date, move the artificial swarm to a new location, I'm not sure what the point of that is.

If you really want the flyers to go to other colonies,(what's the thinking behind that?), why not just move the parent colony and simply don't place anything on the original site.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood what you've said, but if you intend following the wally shaw method, you need to let the bees go through the process of building queen cells, without a queen present, before re-introducing her. That, according to mr shaw, is what kills the swarming impulse.

 

[alldigging]

Enlighten me on his method

http://www.wbka.com/library/library-documents/

Swarm Control: An Apiary Guide (Wally Shaw)

but what's probably worth reading as they aren't swarming yet is

Simple Methods of Making Increase (Wally Shaw

And not forgetting the all time classic
There Are Queen Cells In My Hive (Wally Shaw)

 

[Fatbee]

Although from reading comments on the BBKA FB page you would think swarms are due any minute! Don't think mine will be yet - scraping ice off windscreen this morning, still more winter than spring feel today!

All good reads though and shows there are multiple ways to manage things, people just need to think about it.

 

[REDWOOD]

Due to the 50% success rate of the Pagden Im planning on using the modified Wally this year if my demaree efforts fail
Im wondering what is the advantage of re uniting the laying queen back into the flying bees hive,why not knock down the queen cells,add this to original colony and just dump the flyers to find new homes within the apiary
Would the swarming fever within these flyers trigger swarming in the hives they gain entry to?
I appreciate there could be disease spreading issues

Unfortunately there is the pagden and the botched pagden. If you do it correctly and understand why and what is involved you should get no problems. Wallys adaptation is a demaree except its horizontal not vertically split. I have my reservations on this method

 

[user 3509]

Used this Wally Shaw method last season and it worked brilliantly. The biggest advantage to us was not having to find the queen when you see the first signs of swarming in a hive full of bees!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Once the queen has been replaced on the original site, the parent colony raises new, well nourished queen cells, but there's no need to thin them out.

That's the theory.

That bit is debateable - lots of tales of colonies throwing out casts afterwards. And Wally has since confessed that he's never checked to see what happens after the queen is removed. Wally has had great success with making up 'Walkaway' nucs without thinning out QC's but a nuc with a small number of 'spare' bees is a different matter to a full colony.

Unfortunately there is the pagden and the botched pagden. If you do it correctly and understand why and what is involved you should get no problems.

No - it's well known for years that you get mixed results with Pagden - for one thing you are not really addressing the problem - you are leaving the queen with the flying bees which are the swarm instigators - albeit in an now empty hive so you are depending on it being enough rfeason to persuade them to give up.

Wallys adaptation is a demaree

Nope - nothing like a Demarree, it's a variation of the Snelgrove method but done horizontally not vertical.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well my modified snelgrove will have queen cells thinned this year........maybe

 

[bontbee]

That bit is debateable - lots of tales of colonies throwing out casts afterwards. And Wally has since confessed that he's never checked to see what happens after the queen is removed.]

Mmmm, that isn't what Wally said to me....he was adamant that QCs didn't need to be thinned. I hope to have a chat with him at the Welsh Convention as, for me, the success rate of this method last year was much lower than years of Pagdens... and none of the failures (four out of five) were due to casts issuing from the parent. That's just my experience. It would be good to hear from anyone else who has tried this method.

 

[Eyeman]

I used Wally's Snellgrove II in the past. When needs must (short of time) it's a quick way of reactive swarm control.

 

[REDWOOD]

I like the Pagden and touch wood I have never had one fail and it keeps the honey foragers with the supers. I must admit the Demaree with the modified board works just as well.

 

[Brigsy]

Just tried to do stage 2 of my "Wally" on one colony, it's not going to plan.

Last week the Q+ parent colony hadn't knocked down the queen cells, so I did that before moving the queen to the a/s side.

Now this week, the now Q+ side with the old queen is make more queen cells on one frame, and the Q- parent colony hasn't. No eggs present in the Q- side.

I have taken a frame with eggs from the Q+ side (also the one with QC's on, knocked those down) and added to the Q- side. Will see what they do.

As for the Q+ side, lets see what they do. I can't split them again if they keep making queen cells. Nuc the old queen maybe?