Three quotes from Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey

[Icing Sugar]

Dear all,

This winter's book pile includes "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey." I was quite surprised by three things I have read in it. They do not seem to reflect mainstream ideas or practice that I have encountered elsewhere (admittedly 42 years later). Just out of interest, do any of you follow the following philosophy/approaches... and how do you get on?

• QUOTE ONE
  [*]“The acceptance of a queen is not determined, as hitherto generally assumed, by “colony odour,” but by her behaviour. A fully mature queen, one that has been laying for a considerable time, will have lost her original nervousness and will behave sedately and calmly. When in that condition, her acceptance is assured irrespective of the safeguards generally considered as essential. Odour, or “colony odour” – if there is such a thing, which I doubt – plays no role in the acceptance of a queen. The behaviour of a queen is in turn dependent on her condition at the time of liberation”.
  [*]

My own recent experience is as follows: This autumn, I marked and clipped a well-established queen and her behaviour seemed fine when I first put her back in the hive on a frame of brood. However, within less than a minute she was being chased and treated roughly by the workers and she was subsequently killed. I assumed that the paint had a taste/odour to it that resulted in her being perceived as foreign. Ever since then I have used Snelgrove’s water method for queen introduction/reintroduction with 100% success. In my experience, whenever a queen is placed in water you can just perceive a fine film appear on the surface of the water which I assume to be cuticular chemicals. I had assumed this method to work by temporarily denuding the queen of all identifying odour so that, from an olfactory perspective, she was “invisible” when first put back and her characteristic odour gradually built up again over subsequent hours. However, might this method work in a different way – does dunking a queen in water simply alter her behaviour so that she becomes very quiet and submissive on being (re)introduced to the colony?

I would have thought that odour and behaviour are both important. What is your experience/understanding?

• QUOTE TWO
  [*]“Colony odour (if it exists) is of no significance in the uniting of bees of different colonies. The factor making for success is once more the behaviour of the bees. Every bee keeper is aware that exposure to light has a calming effect on bees, and any which have been exposed thus for some minutes will peaceably join with bees of other colonies without the need for any other precaution. During the whole of the season, when for any reason a transference of bees from one colony to another is necessary, we employ no other safeguard to prevent fighting than exposure to light. When dealing with mongrels or races of exceptional nervous disposition extra care is called for”.
  [*]

I have no experience in this whatsoever for the simple reason that I don’t really like to transfer bees between colonies. I certainly don’t equalise my colonies in the spring. My preference is to compare how my colonies perform by treating them all as equally as possible for as much of the time as possible. At the end of each season I can see which colonies did best in terms of handling and performance (my hives are irregularly positioned and oriented to minimise drifting) and I preferentially use these colonies to build/restock my apiary. I also don’t like to transfer bees/brood between colonies in case it spreads disease. Lastly, I don’t unite weak colonies because, as far as I am concerned, “weak plus weak doesn’t equal strong” – the reason for weakness is not necessarily eradicated by uniting. Therefore, my need to unite frames from different colonies has so far been negligible.

Do any of you transfer frames of workers and brood between hives using no other safeguard than keeping the donor frames in the light for a suitably long period of time? If so, how long do you keep them in the light for? Does this damage any brood on the frame, particularly in spring? How do you think this method actually works?... is it genuinely a calming influence of light on the bees or have you simply left the frames out for so long that all of the flying bees have returned to their original hive, leaving a frame of brood and young nurse bees to go into the recipient colony? How close can you get to doing a full unite this way???

Another question: aren’t nearly all colonies in the UK “mongrel” these days?

• QUOTE THREE
• “After the equalisation and requeening, colonies are left undisturbed until the middle of April. During this period of the season they are kept restricted to the number of combs they can fully cover. When thus managed the development will go forward more rapidly. The risk of an outbreak of Nosema will likewise be thus considerably minimised, if not completely avoided. Unless the weather has been particularly unfavourable, the colonies will by mid-April be in need of an additional comb and a further one about ten days subsequently. This giving of additional space is done step-by-step and by the end of May or early in June each colony should be in possession of its full complement of twelve combs.” (NB. Elsewhere in the book he explains that the average number of combs after equalisation is 7 in a good year, falling to 4 in a very poor year).

Again, I have no experience of managing bees like this in spring and I have not knowingly met anyone who does. It seems like a lot of unnecessary time and effort, with the hives being opened far more frequently than I would want to do at this time of year. Does it really accelerate the rate of spring build up…for which I would have thought sufficient space is needed? Doesn’t it increase the risk of early swarming if you are tardy with putting the next frame in? How specifically is this approach believed to reduce the risk of an outbreak of Nosema? Brother Adam used modified Dadant hives – roughly how frequently would additional frames need to be added to a national hive if this method was replicated?



Any thoughts/experiences in any of these three areas would be gratefully received. I am not disputing the great man for one moment. He is pretty much an undisputed giant in the beekeeping world. However, compared to many other authors, he can come across as being so certain in his views on occasions that I for one can be taken aback, particularly when his assertions appear to be quite different from anything I have seen or read elsewhere.

Thanks.

 

[Hivemaker.]

What is your experience.

My experience of this is that Ive introduced in the region of 200 queens by direct introduction this season... and out of that only a couple have been rejected. One lot even excepted a drone layer.

 

[DanBee]

I seem to recall reading that Br. Adam disagreed publicly with Colin Butler regarding the presence and effects of queen substance. Queen substance (and its contribution to 'colony odour') is generally accepted now.

 

[For want of a better word]

I HAVE A VAST RESPECT FOR BA

It seems that he is often misquoted however and statements attributed to him that are remarkably untrue to add credence to the authors own writings and ideas!

I had just one of 70 or so queens balled and killed as described by Icingsugar**... I had marked and clipped her and reintroduced into a really fecund colony of Cornish Amm that she was heading up... destined to be a breeder queen too... I used very little smoke as I had run out of the rosemary water mist spray that I usually use... lesson learned!!
** 2016 season
On transferring brood ( within the apiary) I have been taught to allow the flying bees to go, but keep the young bees... with a mist of rosemary water they never fight.

Merging colonies... I use newspaper... the Financial times... or The Cornishman in preference!

To be sure the bees will tell you if you are not behaving in an appropriate manner!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

• QUOTE ONE
  [*]“The acceptance of a queen is not determined, as hitherto generally assumed, by “colony odour,” but by her behaviour. A fully mature queen, one that has been laying for a considerable time, will have lost her original nervousness and will behave sedately and calmly. When in that condition, her acceptance is assured irrespective of the safeguards generally considered as essential. Odour, or “colony odour” – if there is such a thing, which I doubt – plays no role in the acceptance of a queen. The behaviour of a queen is in turn dependent on her condition at the time of liberation”.
  [*]

I'm not sure that I would completely agree with this. Mated queens that have spent several days in the post will be calm and sedate in their travelling cage with her own workers, but, remove the workers and put her in a nuc under a push-in cage and she is still at risk until she comes back into lay.
I think the age of the workers is also a factor. If the nuc is made up exclusively (or, at least a high proportion) of young nurse bees, you're almost guaranteed a successful introduction. If it contains too many older foragers, they will reject any number of introduced queens unless they are raised in the nuc from cells

 

[Erichalfbee]

If the nuc is made up exclusively (or, at least a high proportion) of young nurse bees, you're almost guaranteed a successful introduction.

Spot on......in my very limited experience it works every time

 

[pargyle]

I think Br Adam deserves the respect that he generally receives in beekeeping circles - however, some of his deductions, from his observations, are flawed and don't stack up when modern scientific methods are applied.

Although, what he achieved over a long and remarkable life with his bees is worthy of admiration and much of what he did and said still holds true - like everything in beekeeping slavishly following a single route, without thinking, is not the best way. I think Br Adam, if he were still around, would still be thinking about his beekeeping and trying new ideas. I'm sure we can, posthumously, forgive him a few wayward conclusions ...

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I think Br Adam deserves the respect that he generally receives in beekeeping circles - however, some of his deductions, from his observations, are flawed and don't stack up when modern scientific methods are applied.

Although, what he achieved over a long and remarkable life with his bees is worthy of admiration and much of what he did and said still holds true - like everything in beekeeping slavishly following a single route, without thinking, is not the best way. I think Br Adam, if he were still around, would still be thinking about his beekeeping and trying new ideas. I'm sure we can, posthumously, forgive him a few wayward conclusions ...

Well said that man.

 

[Fusion_power]

Read all of his books and a few additional items come to light. Re introduction of queens, he says that the behavior of the queen is paramount. Read the details and he was introducing queens pulled from a mating nuc that had little or no brood into a colony that also had no or very little brood. The key to this introduction method is that the introduced queen does not have to lay heavily immediately upon introduction, also, she has not been in a forced situation such as being in the post several days. He pulled queens from nucs in the morning and introduced them to colonies the same day.

He notes elsewhere that a queen that has been in the post several days is not in condition to lay and must be introduced to a nuc of young bees first before being joined with a full size colony.

 

[Hivemaker.]

He pulled queens from nucs in the morning and introduced them to colonies the same day.

Remove them here from the mating nucs and introduce within ten minutes and up to one hour after removal, not found it to make any difference to the size of colony being introduced too, or the amount of brood present.

 

[Finman]

Read all of his books and a few additional items come to light. Re introduction of queens, he says that the behavior of the queen is paramount. Read the details and he was introducing queens pulled from a mating nuc that had little or no brood into a colony that also had no or very little brood. The key to this introduction method is that the introduced queen does not have to lay heavily immediately upon introduction, also, she has not been in a forced situation such as being in the post several days. He pulled queens from nucs in the morning and introduced them to colonies the same day.

He notes elsewhere that a queen that has been in the post several days is not in condition to lay and must be introduced to a nuc of young bees first before being joined with a full size colony.

Really odd stories

.i have found that when I make the hive queenless, and the colony capps the emergency cells, it accept very well a new queen. It takes 5 days.

When flow is good, I take old queen off and offer the new laying queen.

August is very bad when there are not much yield and robbers are busy.

That makes sense, that bees are more angry before evening,

Funny is that a colony does not accept one queen, but another queen they accept at once.

Meaning of queens' age and selling via post

Australia researches

Research note

Research has shows that the age of the queen when removed from the mating nucleus colony has a significant impact on the survival of that queen at 2 and 15 weeks after introduction into another colony.

14 days after introduction to the new colony:
There were low survival rates of queens caught at 14 days compared with 21 days of age.

At 21 days 82.5% of the queens survived.

This further improved to an average of 90% survival for queens caught at 28 days of age.

The benefits of older caught queens (28 days) are further illustrated after 15 weeks. Losses of queens caught at 21 days can be expected to be 30.5% compared to losses of queens caught at 28 days to be 21%.

This research clearly indicates that queens caught at 28 days for introduction into another colony are better in the long term as far as survivability is concerned.

You should expect to pay more for a 28-day old caught queen than for a 21- or 14-day caught queen due to the longer use of the mating nucleus colonies for the older queen.

Meaning of posting the queen

Australians searched the meaning of posting the queens-

- Posting dropped survival rate to 70%

- Then we add to that losses of too young queens, we get 50% -100% losses


How 100% losses are possible? I ordered 4 queens from Italy. They were all superceded inside one month. I get good new queens but ....


With my own reared queens I have noted too, that if I put just mated queen into a big colony, 30% out of hives do not brake their own emercengy cells and a new virgin will replace the new laying queen.

Idiot sure way to accept a mailed queen

You buy an valuable queen which you want to keep it alive:

Make a nuc over the colony, where you will change the queen

- Put a tight mesh between nuc and hive. Brood frames get heat from downstairs.

- Take from the hive an emerging brood comb or two. Shake all walking bees back to the colony.

- Make a small flying entrance controversy side of the hive.

- Stuck the nuc so that no bees can come out and no in.

- When the nuc has tens of new emerged workers, give the queen into the nuc to walk freely . To clip the wing inside the room.


Keep all holes shut 3 days. On 4th day open the entrance.

You may add later emerging brood frames. Shake all walking bees off.
Do not feed the nuc. It may invite robbers. Give food frames if needed.
.

The nuc gets the scent of lower colony . after 1-2 weeks the nuc and main colony is safe to join.

Kill first the old queen.

.

.

.

 

[Icing Sugar]

Dear all,

Thank you for all of your contributions. This is what I have drawn out of them.

General ideas about collective and individual understanding

With the passage of time, our total understanding of things can and will change. This comes easier to some people than to others. Furthermore, it is not unusual for some parts of our understanding to change considerably more than others. These phenomena exist at individual and group level.

There is a wide variety of tolerance to uncertainty amongst people. Some of us feel most comfortable with clear-cut ideas whereas others enjoy exercising an open mind. What some people appear to present as axiomatic might simply be considered plausible and/or helpful to a greater or lesser extent by some others and they might be rejected outright by yet another group.

It is possible to test ideas and to stratify our sense of confidence in each of them. If done constructively, the clashing of ideas can help us progress our collective understanding and identify the most fruitful areas for further enquiry.

It is very helpful for anybody contributing to a body of understanding to present their ideas in unambiguous language*. However, anybody doing so must ultimately be prepared for all that they promote to be refuted over time and they must even be happy when this happens: legitimate refutation is an unavoidable component of progress.
(*It is also helpful for them to present any caveats directly alongside their hypotheses).

Everyone who contributes to this journey of discovery deserves respect.


Regarding the three quotes…

How I now interpret quote One
When performed by a skilled and experienced beekeeper, a well-established queen bee can be removed from one colony and immediately exchanged for a queen in another colony in much the same brood state without any particular precautions being taken with approximately 99% success rate. The success is completely dependent upon the behaviour of the queen bee when placed in the new colony. Nonetheless, it is now understood that colony odour does exist and that it is derived from the queen. Two ways of improving the success of introduction involve temporarily disguising the scent of the replacement queen (e.g. misting with rosemary water) or introducing her to nurse bees in the first instance. A queen recently received in the post is not in a fit state for immediate introduction into a full colony. (The recipe for rosemary water is very simple: http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-26082.html ).

How I now interpret quote Two
It is perfectly possible to directly introduce a frame of bees and brood from one colony into another if the frame in question is kept out of either hive for sufficient time for all flying bees to have returned to the donor hive. Success is even more likely if a little rosemary water is sprayed over the frame before introduction into the recipient hive. This method does not appear to depend upon exposure to light per se but upon the avoidance of introducing flying bees to a different colony and perhaps the temporary masking of the scent of the introduced material.

How I now interpret quote three
Nowadays, it does not seem to be common practice to manage the spring build up in the manner described by Brother Adam in which he restricts the number of combs to those that the bees can cover from mid-March to mid-April and then gradually adds individual frames to the hive as they become required. I personally suspect that:

• At this time of year the brood area is considerably smaller than the cluster area so the queen has plenty of space in which to lay during this month.
• If this method reduces the risk of Nosema, it does so by providing incontinent worker bees containing heavy Nosema loads with considerably less comb surface to soil with faeces.

I enjoyed reading this book and learnt a lot from it. To all those who have publicly expressed their appreciation of Brother Adam, I would like to assure you that I appreciate him too. I also appreciate all of your contributions and for the way that they have also contributed to my understanding. The thread is now pretty much singularly focusing on queen introduction which is very interesting. I do have some further questions about queen introduction but I would like to ask them in the context of Snelgrove’s book which also features in my winter book pile so, if you don’t mind, another thread will appear in due course.

Thanks again.