Man made v natural breeding and selection

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I wonder, how Westham beekeepers can execute their natural goals. They are really many. They have loaded everything in their barrel wheel. Even sugar feeding is not natiral act. What sugar flour has to do with genes?

Endles list to breed via natural selection. Have they told to Nature, what to do?
 
Last edited:
Long live
Long live the fallacy of equivocation.

I looked it up:
" The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument. "

Which key point or phrase am I using in an ambiguous way, with one meaning... etc?

And: that's rather hostile isn't it? You are not the only one, but I'm curious: why the incivility?
 
That is a question, which is suitable to every domesticated animal, plant, bacteria, fungus, fish and decorative plants.

Genemanipulation and patented breeds encluded.

In the picture genemanipulated patented Surfinia petunia. Made in Japan.

View attachment 30336
Well, yes; and to every domesticated and semi-domesticated species. Man has been breeding (husbanding the qualities) for several thousands years.
 
Well, yes; and to every domesticated and semi-domesticated species. Man has been breeding (husbanding the qualities) for several thousands years.
Reindeers only 800 years.
Sea salmon perhaps 50 years.

Artificial inseminations with enormous results.
 
Last edited:
I keep them in reasonable numbers in remote areas, and allow them to make as many drones as they like. They make lots.

Those same areas have more survivor bees than kept hives.

And: I make new colonies from best, so I'm getting Q-side genes 100% of the time.

Those are probably the main reasons it works.
 
Reindeers only 800 years.
Sea salmon perhaps 50 years.

"Domestication is a sustained multi-generational relationship in which one group of organisms assumes a significant degree of influence over the reproduction and care of another group to secure a more predictable supply of resources from that second group.[1] The domestication of plants and animals was a major cultural innovation ranked in importance with the conquest of fire, the manufacturing of tools, and the development of verbal language.[2]

Charles Darwin recognized the small number of traits that made domestic species different from their wild ancestors. He was also the first to recognize the difference between conscious selective breeding in which humans directly select for desirable traits, and unconscious selection where traits evolve as a by-product of natural selection or from selection on other traits.[3][4][5] There is a genetic difference between domestic and wild populations. There is also such a difference between the domestication traits that researchers believe to have been essential at the early stages of domestication, and the improvement traits that have appeared since the split between wild and domestic populations.[6][7][8] Domestication traits are generally fixed within all domesticates, and were selected during the initial episode of domestication of that animal or plant, whereas improvement traits are present only in a proportion of domesticates, though they may be fixed in individual breeds or regional populations.[7][8][9]

The dog was the first domesticated species,[10][11][12] and was established across Eurasia before the end of the Late Pleistocene era, well before cultivation and before the domestication of other animals.[11] The archaeological and genetic data suggest that long-term bidirectional gene flow between wild and domestic stocks – including donkeys, horses, New and Old World camelids, goats, sheep, and pigs – was common.[8][13] Given its importance to humans and its value as a model of evolutionary and demographic change, domestication has attracted scientists from archaeology, paleontology, anthropology, botany, zoology, genetics, and the environmental sciences. "

" Cause and timing[edit]
Evolution of temperatures in the postglacial period, after the Last Glacial Maximum, showing very low temperatures for the most part of the Younger Dryas, rapidly rising afterwards to reach the level of the warm Holocene, based on Greenland ice cores.[22]
The domestication of animals and plants was triggered by the climatic and environmental changes that occurred after the peak of the Last Glacial Maximum around 21,000 years ago and which continue to this present day. These changes made obtaining food difficult. The first domesticate was the wolf (Canis lupus) at least 15,000 years ago."
 
It is sure, that Darwin was not the first human to understand domestic animals breeding or breeding plants. British isles is not the Centrum of humankind.

60% out of modern cultivated plants has been bred by American Indians. They knew nothing about Darwin.

What was a huge job to Darwin to explain was, that Good has not done all this on earth, but it is evolution.
 
Last edited:
As a scientist I look for data. Anecdotal evidence is just that. Interesting but not proven. Might work for someone else, in a different area, but might equally be a fluke.
Absolutely. However there is, as I'm sure you know, widespread testimony, as well as the scientific work of i.e. Marla Spivak and John Kefuss.

Its my guess that bee-mite co-evolution holds the key. Bees that are able to distinguish sealed cells containing a high number of infant mites from those containing few, and clear out only the former, are in effect breeding low fecundity strains of mite. Given our recent education in R values and exponential population growth is easy to see how that makes a huge difference. If - if - that is the case, then possession of a low-fecundity mite strain is as essential to success as the honeybees' own hygienic behaviour expression.

I'm sure we have had this conversation before. If I came across as hostile that was not my intension. maybe one of the zoom active associations would be interested in a presentation on your theories, unless of course you are already involved with the Westerham group?

Thanks for that. tbh I'm too busy doing real-life stuff and other projects to go down that road.

Someone will be around to correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the evidence coming from researchers working on varroa resistant bees suggested that there were big questions over the inheritable nature of this trait in future generations. if it turns out to be associated with recessive alleles then maintenance of varroa resistant bees is something that I believe beyond most beekeepers using open mated queens

Again; think of Covid. We may develop resistance, but the virus population will be 'seeking' ways around it constantly. Given the fact of a permanent mite presence bees have to be able to adapt to those shifts. It's a standard prey-predator 'arms race'.

The folks who, for very sound reasons, dislike the idea of attempting to escape the medication treadmill are sometimes all too keen to point up scientific items they believe support their case. It is, of course, cherry picking. But it goes round and round, and enters the internet factoid collection.
 
Last edited:
It is sure, that Darwin was not the first human to understand domestic animals breeding or breeding plants. British isles is not the Centrum of humankind.

60% out of modern cultivated plants has been bred by American Indians. They knew nothing about Darwin.

What was a huge job to Darwin to explain was, that Good has not done all this on earth, but it is evolution.

Darwin spent a great deal of time talking to pigeon breeders while he was formulating his ideas.

There is a European medieval husbandry expression on record: 'Put Best to best.' As you point out they knew nothing about evolution - but they knew about the husbandry of qualities.

By the same token Darwin knew nothing about genes. He just knew that there had to be a mechanism.
 
Absolutely. However there is, as I'm sure you know, widespread testimony, as well as the scientific work of i.e. Marla Spivak and John Kefuss.

Its my guess that bee-mite co-evolution holds the key. Bees that are able to distinguish sealed cells containing a high number of infant mites from those containing few, and clear out only the former, are in effect breeding low fecundity strains of mite. Given our recent education in R values and exponential population growth is easy to see how that makes a huge difference. If - if - that is the case, then possession of a low-fecundity mite strain is as essential to success as the honeybees' own hygienic behaviour expression.



Thanks for that. tbh I'm too busy doing real-life stuff and other projects to go down that road.



Again; think of Covid. We may develop resistance, but the virus population will be 'seeking' ways around it constantly. Given the fact of a permanent mite presence bees have to be able to adapt to those shifts. It's a standard prey-predator 'arms race'.

The folks who, for very sound reasons, dislike the idea of attempting to escape the medication treadmill are sometime all to keen to point up scientific items they believe support their case. It is, of course, cherry picking. But it goes round and round, and enters the internet factoid collection.

Your imagination flies too fast.

In Finland under 1 year babies get 13 different vaccinations. Yeah! Natural selection.
 
Your imagination flies too fast.

In Finland under 1 year babies get 13 different vaccinations. Yeah! Natural selection.

Quite how that bears on anything I've said escapes me completely.
 
Darwin spent a great deal of time talking to pigeon breeders while he was formulating his ideas.


When I started studying biology in Helsinki University 1967, ecology was very new term in those term. There was one professor, who kept lectures about plant ecology. And that man was not very known on those uears.

There is a term Logistics 30 years ago. I started to study what does it mean in the organisation of Helsinki City. Now, everything is logistics. I found out 10 years ago, that City of Helsinki does not have logistic goals. It was impossible to evaluate, how well logistics was handled in the biggest organisation of Finland.
 
I keep them in reasonable numbers in remote areas, and allow them to make as many drones as they like. They make lots.

Those same areas have more survivor bees than kept hives.

And: I make new colonies from best, so I'm getting Q-side genes 100% of the time.

Those are probably the main reasons it works.
Did you say remote areas in KENT!! Well at least you didn’t claim humid valleys. Having been to some remote places in the world Kent is not really top of the list. Nor I suspect when brother Adam was setting up his isolated mating apiaries he lamented the fact he was not in Kent.

So how about a rough area for these remote sites nothing specific obviously. Just a town or village so we can use bee base and establish how remote they are.

Most populous counties in a very populated country…..,coming in at number 5😂 https://populationdata.org.uk/english-counties-by-population-and-area/
 
Last edited:
Absolutely. However there is, as I'm sure you know, widespread testimony, as well as the scientific work of i.e. Marla Spivak and John Kefuss.

Its my guess that bee-mite co-evolution holds the key. Bees that are able to distinguish sealed cells containing a high number of infant mites from those containing few, and clear out only the former, are in effect breeding low fecundity strains of mite. Given our recent education in R values and exponential population growth is easy to see how that makes a huge difference. If - if - that is the case, then possession of a low-fecundity mite strain is as essential to success as the honeybees' own hygienic behaviour expression.



Thanks for that. tbh I'm too busy doing real-life stuff and other projects to go down that road.



Again; think of Covid. We may develop resistance, but the virus population will be 'seeking' ways around it constantly. Given the fact of a permanent mite presence bees have to be able to adapt to those shifts. It's a standard prey-predator 'arms race'.

The folks who, for very sound reasons, dislike the idea of attempting to escape the medication treadmill are sometimes all too keen to point up scientific items they believe support their case. It is, of course, cherry picking. But it goes round and round, and enters the internet factoid collection.
BN,
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who finds it frustrating when a forum member claims to have made a significant break through in beekeeping but then cant be bothered / refuses to elaborate on this. You have obviously thought about the rational for the system you work with, together with the implications of your action in relation to current scientific understanding, although personally I have concerns on some of its validity (especially on vector and virus relationship). Frankly, without more than your word, a lot of this forum will think of you as a modern day charlatan. That's up to you

I would suggest you looks up Russell's teapot, or my preferred modern example, the Flying Spaghetti Monster

'May you be touched by his noodly appendage'
 
@Beesnaturally said.......................And: that's rather hostile isn't it? You are not the only one, but I'm curious: why the incivility?

I think differently, maybe I lost focus of the logic in the discussion, probably because there are too many things going on.
 
BN,
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who finds it frustrating when a forum member claims to have made a significant break through in beekeeping but then cant be bothered / refuses to elaborate on this. You have obviously thought about the rational for the system you work with, together with the implications of your action in relation to current scientific understanding, although personally I have concerns on some of its validity (especially on vector and virus relationship). Frankly, without more than your word, a lot of this forum will think of you as a modern day charlatan. That's up to you

How would you like me to elaborate? I could take photos of nice busy hives, but that wouldn't convince you if you mistrust me.

What I done is begin to explain _why_ it works. _If_ you can follow the rationale you can see that the singular statement I made - that treating inhibits the rise of resistance, _must_ follow the principle claims of breeding and evolution.

Certainly it isn't relevant for most beekeepers. Hobbyists don't have enough hives and commercial beekeeper want to maximise their income. But that doesn't make it untrue. But I'm not the only person doing this, and I'm in good (scientific) company. See for example the Journal of Apicultural Research:

"A survival field test was initiated in 1999 to observe the effects of no treatment against Varroa destructor on European honey bee colony survival. After losses of over two-thirds of the 268 original colonies, new colonies were made from the survivors. In 2002, genetic material from these survivors was bred into an independent group of 60 colonies. In 2013, 519 non-treated colonies from both groups were being used for commercial beekeeping, and mite populations were very low. This indicates that under commercial beekeeping conditions, simple methods can be used to select for reduced mite populations."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1160709
Nature Communications
" We show that while the honey bee population has been hard hit by the introduction of parasitic mites, it most likely did not go extinct. Rather, the bees have rapidly evolved to tolerate the mites’ presence, and now exist at the same colony densities today, as they did in the past. This response was most likely polygenic, but possibly involves some of the same pathways previously identified in Varroa resistance, namely dopaminergic control of aversive memory. These findings suggest that wild populations of honey bees have an inherent capacity to mount a rapid evolutionary response to novel parasites. "
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms8991
Randy Oliver:
"[...] I strongly support those willing to actually practice [sic]
selective breeding for treatment-free (or minimal treatment) locally-adapted
stocks of bees. But let me be frank (try to stop me); if you start your hive
with commercial stock, then by all means care for them as domesticated
animals! If you want to go treatment free then start with survivor stock
bred to be naturally resistant to mites and viruses, such as VSH, Russian,
or locally-adapted ferals. Do not kid yourself into thinking that allowing
innocent domesticated bees to die a slow and ugly death is the same thing as
breeding for survivor stock -- 'breeding' instead means the propagation of
bees that don't die -- the key word bring propagation. And this is a
frustration for many well-intentioned beginners -- no one in their area is
propagating survivor stock for sale. That is why wrote this article.

To me, it is a crime against nature not to breed daughters from that
fantastic survivor colony. But most beekeepers think that it is beyond their
scope of ability to raise queens. Nonsense! Let me show you how to raise
about 10 queens at a time for pennies apiece. This is not the way we do it
commercially, but this method can be easily practiced by most anyone."

American Bee Journal, March 2014, 273-277
Page 273
 
Did you say remote areas in KENT!! Well at least you didn’t claim humid valleys. Having been to some remote places in the world Kent is not really top of the list. Nor I suspect when brother Adam was setting up his isolated mating apiaries he lamented the fact he was not in Kent.
I expect you can find a scientific source, but I think this gives the general idea:

"During a mating flight, a queen bee can fly a considerable distance depending on whether she is able to find drones with which to mate. Also, the drones themselves are flying between one to three miles from their hives to nearby drone congregation areas where they too are looking for queens. The queens can also theoretically fly about the same distance when looking for drones. In theory, that means that a drone can potentially mate with a queen that is 6 miles away! In actuality, however, on average, most mating flights occur within a mile of the virgin queen’s home colony. If a queen encounters a drone congregation area right away, the mating can take place very close to the queen’s home colony. If she cannot find drones, the queen can fly up to the maximum distance while out looking for drones.

Herein lies the answer to our question: How far does a queen bee fly to mate? It depends on how quickly she finds drones, or how quickly the drones find her!

At Wildflower Meadows, our number one focus is producing the highest quality VSH-Italian queen bees for sale. Accordingly, we think a lot about how to create the most ideal mating conditions for our virgin queens. That includes flooding mating areas with as many drones as possible. Our drone production colonies are usually spread about a mile apart in various directions from our mating yards. Our goal is to create a radius of drones around the virgin queens, so that they do not have to fly too far for mating. Our positioning strategy also ensures that our queens are most likely to mate with our own Wildflower Meadows’ drones of known optimum genetics."
https://wildflowermeadows.com/2019/03/how-far-do-queen-bees-fly-to-mate/
 
About Randy Oliver 2014

Randy changed his mind. He noticed that mite resistant bees die quite easily for varroa.

Now a while ago Randy wrote, that he started a new breeding program in 2015.
10% out of his hives can stay alive without treatment.

Researches have shown, that hybrid anti varroa bees cannot resist mites.

In USA hives die every year 50%. Half dies in summer season and half on winter season. Biggest losses are in backyard beekeepers apiarirs, about 70%, because they do not treat their hives. Main reason is varroa.

Scientists are sad, because beekeepers listen more natural beekeepers than science.

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top