Macdee’s Demaree

[Macdee]

Hi all,

I did a Demaree on two hives last Sunday and did a check today of both.
The first one had three charged QCs in the top brood box as expected.

However the second hive had 3 charged QCs in the BOTTOM box.; this was not as expected.
All three are in the middle of the brood frame that was left in the bottom hive, along with a frame of food and frames with new foundation in them.
One of the QCs was pointing downwards as normal and almost sealled, but the other two where pointing at about 30 degrees; they all have the crinkled look of QCs.

The queen was still there on the frame and there were eggs in some of the cells.

I was pretty sure I hadn't missed any when I left the brood frame with the queen in the bottom box. Plus if I had, I would have expected them to have all been sealed; 4 days later.

Please could someone help me understand what is going on and what to do next ?

Cheers

Al

 

[enrico]

I will tell you what I would do. I would presume that there was some panic that all the here had disappeared so the bees are hedging their bets by producing cells on case the queen is duff. I would remove them and see what happens. Look inside and see what is on there. That is what I would do but please wait until someone who uses this method regularly gives an answer
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Here's your answer :

Hi

I have just done a Demaree on two hives because I found queen cells and wanted to keep the colonies strong for the current flow and OSR that is now in flower.

Will check in a week for QCs in the top brood box.

Hope yours goes well too.

Cheers
Al

we did warn that it's too late to do a Demarree if they have started making swarm preparations

 

[Macdee]

Hi

I am a bit confused, because on this website

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/demaree.html

it talks about
'If I found queen cells during a routine inspection I would....'
&
'Works well as a swarm control method.'

What am I missing here ?

Al

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi

I am a bit confused, because on this website

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/demaree.html

it talks about
'If I found queen cells during a routine inspection I would....'
&
'Works well as a swarm control method.'

What am I missing here ?

Al

I think the person who wrote it was a bit confused as well. all respect to Dave, but nowhere in Demarree's original article does it say to leave them swarm, nor mention demarree'ing after finding QC's
That combined with RP's comments just makes it a mishmash of disinformation.
sorting out the top box is easy as you won't get many QC's and they'll soon run out of material to make more. You can just knock off the QC's in the bottom box and hope for the best, but you'd better have a stock of spare fingers to cross.
only thing you can do is strip the bottom box of all brood and just leave the queen on a frame of empty drawn comb and the rest foundation
There seems to be quite a few BKA's out there who post instructions for conducting a Demarree when in truth they don't really understand the process.

 

[Courty]

When people talk about queen cells, are they meaning charged cells or just empty queen cups?
This is my first attempt at using a Demaree, I’m getting the idea that if bees are already fully intent on swarming, the Demaree isn’t the appropriate method. Maybe if the reason for swarming is the lack of space, a Demaree could solve this. If it is a failing queen, it probably won’t. If they are determined to swarm then a tipping point may have been passed and they will continue on their own path.
Before the tipping point there could be queen cells or cups and a Demaree will work. Does this sound right? I’m trying to make sense of why some descriptions say to do a Demaree when finding queen cells, and others state is is a preemptive measure to do before they appear.
Seems to me there is a grey area that I don’t fully appreciate yet due to lack of experience.

Courty

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

When people talk about queen cells, are they meaning charged cells or just empty queen cups?
This is my first attempt at using a Demaree, I’m getting the idea that if bees are already fully intent on swarming, the Demaree isn’t the appropriate method. Maybe if the reason for swarming is the lack of space, a Demaree could solve this. If it is a failing queen, it probably won’t. If they are determined to swarm then a tipping point may have been passed and they will continue on their own path.
Before the tipping point there could be queen cells or cups and a Demaree will work. Does this sound right? I’m trying to make sense of why some descriptions say to do a Demaree when finding queen cells, and others state is is a preemptive measure to do before they appear.
Seems to me there is a grey area that I don’t fully appreciate yet due to lack of experience.

Courty

There's no grey area - just people giving out the wrong information. If there are queen cells, they have begun swarm preparations so it's too late for Demarree.
A queen cell is a cell with a queen in it (whether larva, pupa or whatever) you may (and I mean may) get away with it if there is only an egg. an empty cup is a playcup, bees make them all the time, it's not a queen cell.
So your 'tipping point' is finding a charged queen cell.
telling you to conduct a Demarree after finding (charged) queen cells is like telling someone to put on a condom after having sex

 

[Courty]

Thanks, that’s pretty clear.
If the reason for swarming is lack of laying space, why wouldn’t a Demaree work if it suddenly provides lots of extra space for the queen to lay?

Courty

 

[pargyle]

Thanks, that’s pretty clear.
If the reason for swarming is lack of laying space, why wouldn’t a Demaree work if it suddenly provides lots of extra space for the queen to lay?

Courty

Once a colony has entered let's call it 'swarm mode' there's very little that will stop them swarming apart from an artificical swarm - where they then think they have already swarmed. Anything else may, sometimes, work - like everything in beekeeping (and as per Bernard Mobius) "Bees do nothing invariably" - but if you want to be certain - if you see queen cells - AS - ASAP. Pagden is the most taught and probably the easiest, most logical and most reliable.

 

[Courty]

This is fascinating stuff, I was nervous about trying the Demaree but now that it’s started, seeing it in practise makes sense of what I read, and raises more questions on the way.

Courty

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If the reason for swarming is lack of laying space, why wouldn’t a Demaree work

Because if you find QC's they've already hit the red button and it's too late to stop them, scout bees have been investigating new locations for days if not weeks, the queen is being slimmed down so she can fly and the decision has been made, but you are thinking along the right lines, the basic principle of the Demarree is to give them the extra space before they desperately need it and start packing their bags, the objective is to separate the queen well away from the brood (hence the shallows in between) so when the fliers return they have an empty chamber which needs to be repopulated.
The added bonus is, the nurse bees at the top are still getting a whiff of queen pheromone so aren't triggered into Q- panic mode however, because the pheromone is weak they start thinking of replacing the queen as she may be failing, hence you get very few QC's in the top box, not emergency QC's (as some ballon once insisted) but good quality supersedure cells from genetic strains chosen by the bees.
I can honestly say that, although over the years I've popped the crown board at day 3 or 4 and checked for sealed QC's (which will obviously be from older, less desireable larvae) I've never found any, but always at day 7 found nice large open QC's on the point of being capped.

 

[Macdee]

One question though.

In the Demeree we are separating the brood from the queen and flying bees, by putting all the brood up in the top box.

So isn't this very similar to a pagden artificial swarm, where we again separate the queen and flying bees from the brood.

"The principle of the [pagden] artificial swarm is to separate the queen and flying bees from the brood and nurse bees."

What is the key difference that makes the Demaree not a artifical swarm ?

Thanks

Al

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is the key difference that makes the Demaree not a artifical swarm ?

1. You are not splitting your colony so no reduction in workforce and productivity, in fact, productivity increases as you have basically doubled the brood area and as she has found herself in an empty box, the queen steps up her laying rate a gear or two.
2.as you are not taking the queen away there is no brood break unlike Pagden when there is a long break in the Q- side and the q+ side has lost a boxful of brood and has to wait for the queen to lay up again and 21 days for the first brood to emerge
3. Demarree is preemptive so the bees don't have 'swarm fever' unlike pagden when they have it full throttle and frequently still swarm after the manipulation
4. Demarree is a vertical 'split', if you take away the little tweaks some of us have added you need a lot less extra kit - just one more brood box, unlike Pagden where you need another hive stand, floor, brood box, crownboard, roof and QX
...... and you still get a new queen if you want it.

 

[Macdee]

Macdee’s “Demarees”

Well in one hive that was Demaree'ed it seems to be settling down, the other hive that was Demaree'ed has built some QCs with an egg in.

So if I understand it correctly, the point is the hive is aware that the nurse bees & brood are still around, despite the fact that there are 2/3 supers between the queen in the bottom brood box and the nurse bees & brood in the top brood box.

I had thought that the two supers separating the brood boxes would have made the hive think that the nurse bees & brood where not around any more.

So if I take the top brood box off the hive and put it on a new stand elsewhere, leaving the queen and the flying bees to themselves in the bottom brood box, will that settle them down as they will have no brood any more?

[The separation of the brood away from the queen and flying bees would then match what happens in a Pagdens AS]

Thanks

Al

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

where have they built QC's ?

 

[Curly green finger's]

This is the demaree I've been taught I hope the teacher doesn't mind me putting this up.. He's a very respectable gentleman.


Here is the procedure for a single box colony which has a brood nest approaching or passing-8 or more combs. - It is another use of the Demaree process. - -The original colony brood box we will call BB1. - The second brood box we will call BB2.


Follow the usual Demaree procedure to set up the 2-box colony

Place -BB2 next to the colony, eg on the upturned colony roof.

Remove one end-comb, shaking all the bees off back into BB1 and lay aside

If you can find the queen:

Put her on her frame in a safe place eg an empty nuc box with floor, or a specially made 1 frame box (with floor and lid) to hold queens safely, - or simply a wide enough gap in BB1.-

Remove all the remaining brood frames with adhering bees into BB1

Adjust the content of the two boxes as follows

BB2 - - the transferred brood frames + -1 or 2 combs of stores/pollen for feeding the open brood

BB1 - - the brood frame with the queen, 1 frame of stores/pollen to feed the open brood, -empty combs or foundation to match the number of frames in BB2.-

Put BB2 queen on top of BB1 with the queen excluder between them. The QX confines the queen to one box, which makes subsequent manipulations simpler. having to look through - If there are supers, put these directly on top of BB2, -and close up the colony.-

Check for queen cells in BB2 within 5-7 days and dispose of as you wish -(the upper box is isolated enough from the queen to prompt the nurse bees there to start supersession).

If you don’t find the queen, simply shake off-all the bees-from each frame back into BB1 before you transfer it to BB2


Then manage the colony at each weekly inspection as follows:

Look for swarm/supersession queen cells in BB1 and prompted-supersession queen cells in BB2 and act accordingly.- If there are swarm -cells in BB1 you have the option of putting these above the queen excluder as you would in the normal use of the Demaree procedure. This whole procedure is a good method form small scale queen rearing, and avoids the need for grafting. You can get 5-10 queen cells at a time. If you keep a sheet of plastic over the QX for 24 hours after moving open brood into BB2, the bees tend to make more cells under the orphanage impulse; removing the plastic then reverts them to the supersession impulse when, we are told, -the cells will be built fed to produce better quality queens.

Cycle enough sealed-brood combs up into BB2 -to match the number of empty (emerged) brood combs in BB2 which are cycled down to BB1 -- so the number of combs in each box stays the same.

If the queen is really prolific and she outruns the available space in the 2-box hive,-you can choose between

Bleeding brood combs off to reinforce other colonies or nucs

Forming a new full or nuc colony from BB2, which is then reset to its starting state

Ref... M. S.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’ve put this thread back in the main forum as adding it to a closed sticky dudnt make sense
I’ve trimmed it a bit too
If it doesn’t make sense now please pm me.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I’ve put this thread back in the main forum as adding it to a closed sticky dudnt make sense
I’ve trimmed it a bit too
If it doesn’t make sense now please pm me.

I was just wondering, where emyrs demaree method had gone?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This is the demaree I've been taught I hope the teacher doesn't mind me putting this up.. He's a very respectable gentleman.


Here is the procedure for a single box colony which has a brood nest approaching or passing-8 or more combs. - It is another use of the Demaree process. - -The original colony brood box we will call BB1. - The second brood box we will call BB2.


Follow the usual Demaree procedure to set up the 2-box colony

Place -BB2 next to the colony, eg on the upturned colony roof.

Remove one end-comb, shaking all the bees off back into BB1 and lay aside

If you can find the queen:

Put her on her frame in a safe place eg an empty nuc box with floor, or a specially made 1 frame box (with floor and lid) to hold queens safely, - or simply a wide enough gap in BB1.-

Remove all the remaining brood frames with adhering bees into BB1

Adjust the content of the two boxes as follows

BB2 - - the transferred brood frames + -1 or 2 combs of stores/pollen for feeding the open brood

BB1 - - the brood frame with the queen, 1 frame of stores/pollen to feed the open brood, -empty combs or foundation to match the number of frames in BB2.-

Put BB2 queen on top of BB1 with the queen excluder between them. The QX confines the queen to one box, which makes subsequent manipulations simpler. having to look through - If there are supers, put these directly on top of BB2, -and close up the colony.-

Check for queen cells in BB2 within 5-7 days and dispose of as you wish -(the upper box is isolated enough from the queen to prompt the nurse bees there to start supersession).

If you don’t find the queen, simply shake off-all the bees-from each frame back into BB1 before you transfer it to BB2


Then manage the colony at each weekly inspection as follows:

Look for swarm/supersession queen cells in BB1 and prompted-supersession queen cells in BB2 and act accordingly.- If there are swarm -cells in BB1 you have the option of putting these above the queen excluder as you would in the normal use of the Demaree procedure. This whole procedure is a good method form small scale queen rearing, and avoids the need for grafting. You can get 5-10 queen cells at a time. If you keep a sheet of plastic over the QX for 24 hours after moving open brood into BB2, the bees tend to make more cells under the orphanage impulse; removing the plastic then reverts them to the supersession impulse when, we are told, -the cells will be built fed to produce better quality queens.

Cycle enough sealed-brood combs up into BB2 -to match the number of empty (emerged) brood combs in BB2 which are cycled down to BB1 -- so the number of combs in each box stays the same.

If the queen is really prolific and she outruns the available space in the 2-box hive,-you can choose between

Bleeding brood combs off to reinforce other colonies or nucs

Forming a new full or nuc colony from BB2, which is then reset to its starting state

Ref... M. S.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

No resemblance at all to a Demarree, and that bit with the plastic is just a botch to follow a Cloake procedure but without a board
You're not preempting or supressing the urge to swarm, you're just imprisoning the queen to make sure she can't fly off. then harvesting either swarm cells or emergency queen cells

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

1. You are not splitting your colony so no reduction in workforce and productivity, in fact, productivity increases as you have basically doubled the brood area and as she has found herself in an empty box, the queen steps up her laying rate a gear or two.
2.as you are not taking the queen away there is no brood break unlike Pagden when there is a long break in the Q- side and the q+ side has lost a boxful of brood and has to wait for the queen to lay up again and 21 days for the first brood to emerge
3. Demarree is preemptive so the bees don't have 'swarm fever' unlike pagden when they have it full throttle and frequently still swarm after the manipulation
4. Demarree is a vertical 'split', if you take away the little tweaks some of us have added you need a lot less extra kit - just one more brood box, unlike Pagden where you need another hive stand, floor, brood box, crownboard, roof and QX
...... and you still get a new queen if you want it.

Is there anything you need to think about if you are performing on an existing double BB? I have performed on one with success but lost the other second....I have figured out because the choice on the second was too late. Both were double BBs that I thought would have adequate space.