Advice on a single sealed QC discovery

[J F]

Thanks. Reassuring to know!

 

[magor]

because those studies in the apiarist blog made under the emergency response and bees wont waste time and so ll prefer mostly pick the latest day egg than younger eggs

to take it further there are also studies(in apiarist blog too) talk about eggs are not all the same ,some are heavier than others. to take it even further heavier are those laid in Qcups under swarm response for example? so its not just temperature or nutrition important of the cell but also the egg itself plays a role too (same way as bees not all the same -there are bees and there are diutinus bees )

for me i ve no doubts if mostly bee queens are heavier/bigger/better than human graftin queens,but dunno if i ll call them scrub but sure are Q that suit in human agenda and protocol for mass reproduction nothing more nothing less

am sure that we need new protocols that follow bees ''πολύ=poly=much(not the best just much)'' -polyandry-polygyny-polychrome

also there are studies that talk about cell builders or nucleous with young bees from different colonies(for ''much differnet'' small RNAs) and for keep breeder Q in smaller colonies than graft from your best/bigger colony so as it help to graft bigger larvae that are hatched from bigger eggs and also will help the queen to keep the stored sperms for longer time instead of using them in one or two seasons in a large colony.

 

[pargyle]

Do bees try to make queens from 4 day old larvae which have been starved of royal jelly for a day?



So for six days if you include 1/2/3 day old eggs

I think you are missing the point .. the various studies do not say that it is not impossible for the bees to raise queens from day 1 eggs to day 3 (or even later) larvae .. but the study shows that on average, the queens raised from 3 day old eggs may be superior to those raised from eggs or larvae outside of those parameters. The bees seem to prefer these queens as they tear down a higher percentage of queen cells raised on eggs or larvae outside of those parameters.

I construed from that that, if we, as hobby beekeepers, are seeking to raise superior queens from our preferred colonies, then the ideal material to give the bees is a frame that includes eggs at the earliest stage - in the hope that the bees will build on a 3 day old egg - it's not an argument - merely conjecture from the evidence in the various studies.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think you are missing the point .. the various studies do not say that it is not impossible for the bees to raise queens from day 1 eggs to day 3 (or even later) larvae .. but the study shows that on average, the queens raised from 3 day old eggs may be superior to those raised from eggs or larvae outside of those parameters. The bees seem to prefer these queens as they tear down a higher percentage of queen cells raised on eggs or larvae outside of those parameters.

I construed from that that, if we, as hobby beekeepers, are seeking to raise superior queens from our preferred colonies, then the ideal material to give the bees is a frame that includes eggs at the earliest stage - in the hope that the bees will build on a 3 day old egg - it's not an argument - merely conjecture from the evidence in the various studies.

I think we are splitting hairs. The publication is badly phrased. The bees cannot make any sort of bee, worker or queen, from a one or two or even three day old egg because they can't feed an egg but they can from a newly hatched egg...a first day larva. Or is the author saying they start feeding an egg before it hatches? then that would be completely different. Does that happen?

 

[J F]

Even better, none of that matters because I've still got the queen anyway

 

[Erichalfbee]

Even better, none of that matters because I've still got the queen anyway

Of course it matters. This forum isn’t a simple encyclopaedia

 

[pargyle]

I think we are splitting hairs. The publication is badly phrased. The bees cannot make any sort of bee, worker or queen, from a one or two or even three day old egg because they can't feed an egg but they can from a newly hatched egg...a first day larva. Or is the author saying they start feeding an egg before it hatches? then that would be completely different. Does that happen?

It's not about whether a larvae or an egg is fed ... as I read it - it's about selection by the bees - look at the percentages of the queen cells that are knocked down by the bees - the queen cells that are most likely to be matured into queens are those built on 3 day old eggs. The bees, clearly, see some benefit in raising queens from eggs that are 3 days old .. and the further evidence is that these queens are more robust than ones that mature from either younger eggs or older larvae.

If you were going to bet on which queen they are rearing is going to be the best then would you not bet on the ones with the best odds (as indicated by the bees behaviour and the outcome of the queens reared) ?

Why there is this difference ? We don't know - but the statistics show there is a difference.

 

[Antipodes]

Even better, none of that matters because I've still got the queen anyway

What queen?

 

[pargyle]

Even better, none of that matters because I've still got the queen anyway

One of the joys of this forum is the way innocuous threads often turn into a discussion that is tangential to the original post. There is so much information available (and occasionally conflicting) that no one person can read all the studies and no single beekeeper has all the answers. The saying regarding asking 5 beekeepers the same question and getting 6 different answers tells all ...

I'm interested in what the bees do if, to some extent, they are left to work in the way they want to work - working with the bees is part of my beekeeping philosophy and the studies noted in this thread are and indication of what the bees do in an unrestricted situation. If we take notice of what the bees appear to prefer and tailor our beekeeping to their preferences then it would seem to me that this is something that is beneficial to our beekeeping ?

I can't see an argument in this ...

 

[rolande]

The thing I find odd is that this three day egg selection seems to exclude eggs laid directly into queen cups in favour of later, worker selection.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It's not about whether a larvae or an egg is fed ... as I read it - it's about selection by the bees - look at the percentages of the queen cells that are knocked down by the bees - the queen cells that are most likely to be matured into queens are those built on 3 day old eggs. The bees, clearly, see some benefit in raising queens from eggs that are 3 days old .. and the further evidence is that these queens are more robust than ones that mature from either younger eggs or older larvae.

If you were going to bet on which queen they are rearing is going to be the best then would you not bet on the ones with the best odds (as indicated by the bees behaviour and the outcome of the queens reared) ?

Why there is this difference ? We don't know - but the statistics show there is a difference.

I always thought 1 day old eggs became 2 days then three then first day larva.
Obviously not so I give up.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The thing I find odd is that this three day egg selection seems to exclude eggs laid directly into queen cups in favour of later, worker selection.

I think we were talking about EQCs
If we aren’t then maybe bees move three day old eggs into Queen cups?

 

[pargyle]

I always thought 1 day old eggs became 2 days then three then first day larva.
Obviously not so I give up.

Read the studies ... I can't explain anymore.

 

[RJC]

I think we were talking about EQCs
If we aren’t then maybe bees move three day old eggs into Queen cups?

Perhaps it is just simple timing. A 3 day old egg will be a queen 2 days earlier than a 1 day old egg, so better to start building that up first if they are in a hurry? (I've not read the paper, so aim off for that!)

 

[Martimart]

If you are struggling to see eggs in the cells, try taking a photo of the frames and then zoom in. It can make all the difference sometimes.

This is what i do for checking on varroa , photo 1 side of 2 frames in 2 hives gives a general idea and i can zoom in and get a clear view whilst drinking tea.

 

[rolande]

I think we were talking about EQCs
If we aren’t then maybe bees move three day old eggs into Queen cups?

This is the fascinating thing, a very high degree of selection at a time when under most pressure.

I think there was some research which suggested that eggs laid in cups were on average heavier than those in ordinary worker cells, I can't remember where/who that claim came from but if it were found to be true then it doesn't take a giant leap to see that eggs in ordinary comb may be of variable quality that becomes discernable to the bees as the egg approaches full maturation. Now that really is clutching at straws but there must be a reason.

 

[JamezF]

This is the fascinating thing, a very high degree of selection at a time when under most pressure.

I think there was some research which suggested that eggs laid in cups were on average heavier than those in ordinary worker cells, I can't remember where/who that claim came from but if it were found to be true then it doesn't take a giant leap to see that eggs in ordinary comb may be of variable quality that becomes discernable to the bees as the egg approaches full maturation. Now that really is clutching at straws but there must be a reason.

David Evans has discussed the egg weight thing a few times over the last couple of months and includes some feedback from beeks who have tried to get the queen to lay in artificial "queen size" cells by caging her on the frame as far as I recall.

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is the fascinating thing, a very high degree of selection at a time when under most pressure.

I think there was some research which suggested that eggs laid in cups were on average heavier than those in ordinary worker cells, I can't remember where/who that claim came from but if it were found to be true then it doesn't take a giant leap to see that eggs in ordinary comb may be of variable quality that becomes discernable to the bees as the egg approaches full maturation. Now that really is clutching at straws but there must be a reason.

So where does selecting Royal Patrilines come in here considering the number of Queen cups the Queen lays in? Maybe that’s why many come to nothing while the bees look for the right ones?
Edit
No. These are important only in the workers the new queen will make.
Back to school for me

 

[rolande]

So where does selecting Royal Patrilines come in here considering the number of Queen cups the Queen lays in? Maybe that’s why many come to nothing while the bees look for the right ones?

Delaplane's take on the matter:

 

[rolande]

So where does selecting Royal Patrilines come in here considering the number of Queen cups the Queen lays in? Maybe that’s why many come to nothing while the bees look for the right ones?
Edit
No. These are important only in the workers the new queen will make.
Back to school for me

When I first read of Moritz's research on the royal families I was mistaken (due to the way it was being put across by the people reporting it) into thinking that it was a positive selection method, Delaplane's explanation turned that idea on its head.

Has anyone read Moritz's 'Dark side of the Hive'? I imagine that there will be some interesting information on this matter in there. I really must get a copy...