Listen with Martha

[Quis Custodiet]

And you turn up like a bad smell at the mere mention of Amm. Do you really think anyone takes you seriously? Honestly?

Fortunately,I do not take you too seriously! I have no doubt but that at heart you are quite a decent sort ...honest and hardworking. Some day you will perhaps realise that the bees you describe are not AMM. No harm in that...you are free to keep whatever bees you choose.

 

[Swarm]

There you go again.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

There you go again.

Thank you Steve.

 

[mbc]

There you go again.

No point feeding the troll mate

 

[SDM]

The whole iow thing was largely blown out of proportion in the media. Look at what the likes of bailey has written on the subject and if we take it that iow was actually paralysis, the buckfast bee of today certainly isn't immune to it, whether ba's strain was is another thing but it is doubtful.

I found a photo cooy of a paper a few yrs ago that gave loss figures for some of the south.coast as declared by beekeepers and associations in the first few yrs of the 20th century which djdnt make it all look like exaggeration. Theres no reason to think that any new threat couldnt have been as destructive as varroa imagine the state of play now if varroa had not been so easy to diagnose.
I thought it was the ligustica that came with restocking that were considered resistant to whatever was behind it. No doubt BA hoped his hybrid would retain any resistance and in early crosses maybe it did. Who knows.

 

[foghornleghorn]

I found a photo cooy of a paper a few yrs ago that gave loss figures for some of the south.coast as declared by beekeepers and associations in the first few yrs of the 20th century which djdnt make it all look like exaggeration. Theres no reason to think that any new threat couldnt have been as destructive as varroa imagine the state of play now if varroa had not been so easy to diagnose.
I thought it was the ligustica that came with restocking that were considered resistant to whatever was behind it. No doubt BA hoped his hybrid would retain any resistance and in early crosses maybe it did. Who knows.

There was lots of other things going on at the same time. Poor weather, sugar shortages, changes from skeps to modern hives and the "treatments" for iow.

 

[BKF Admin]

Who is next ?

 

[SDM]

There was lots of other things going on at the same time. Poor weather, sugar shortages, changes from skeps to modern hives and the "treatments" for iow.

Whether a single cause or a perfect storm like modern ccd . The cure apoeared to have been restocking with non natives. A lack of data is going to mean conclusions will be subjective of course. All we can do is explain why we do or dont accept the conclusions of others, but as ive discovered today, such discussions can occasionally end uo with opposing views finding a common ground neither had considered.

 

[TooBee...]

Jenkins has abused and insulted most members here, many are too frightened to post and others have left because of his attitude.

...having him on a drum shell and being heard over a mile away seems like something he would want.

a mile ! you mean an irish mile, that things noise carries a LOT further than a mile, had a neighbor that took it out every year to practice on, for cryin' out loud, that thing could wake the dead, you could feel your fillings in your teeth shaking!

 

[Quis Custodiet]

a mile ! you mean an irish mile, that things noise carries a LOT further than a mile, ........................................

In actual fact, under ideal conditions, with tight heads and the goats fighting, the Belfast Step has been heard up to five miles away. But would it really be fair to inflict Jenkins on decent people over a five mile range?

When a lambeg is well "tuned" .....well pulled and well stretched, a sound reminiscent of a swarm of bees can be heard, this is the wash and can affect the fillings as you describe! It is also a sign the heads are close to breaking and the buffs ( pieces of leather or similar holding pairs of ropes together) need to be relaxed.

 

[TooBee...]

In continuation with the Posts relating to Brother Adams claim that the AMM had been wiped out here, my understanding was that his own experience was that AMM genes only survived in hybrid bees (an AML and a AMM hybrid I believe was the only one that survived in his AMM dominated apiary).

Having NEVER read thoroughly any of his writings from cover to cover, could his claim be understood in the context that he believed that only AMM hybrids could survive or isolated pockets which would sooner or later succumb to the IWD, in that he believed IWD was solely an actual disease; there is a good argument that it was also environmental conditions at the time - if he wasn't aware of these environmental conditions argument (as necessary for the IWD to occur), it's understandable why he would make his claim of extinction expecting all the AMM to die out: The presence of AMM in later years could be explained by imports from France - which would also explain why he choose AMM from France, believing that they were in some way immune to the IWD (my understanding is that the environmental conditions did not occur in France as much as they did over here - but the 100% identity of the IWD disease in never going to be established...).

This possible 'Brother Adams' viewpoint would explain his extinction claim, as a truthful claim based on his reasoning / understanding at the time; Although I could be giving him too much benefit of the doubt here?

Just a thought or two.

 

[SDM]

Im still not clear what "the doubt" is.

 

[Finman]

Brother Adam knew quite well what he is going. That is why he succeeded so well. Perhaps he should cross all famous local black bees but he did not. Somebody else can do instead 50 years after him.

IT is strange that forum try to think, what Brother Adam thought, when he was doing his project.

And then bee breeding before movable frames was very difficult. Vain to think what ancient beekeepers thought about races. But nowadays we know where the bee breeding went, and not at least to breed black bees.

 

[Finman]

In continuation with the Posts relating to Brother Adams claim that the AMM had been wiped out here, my understanding was that his own experience was that AMM genes only survived in hybrid bees (an AML and a AMM hybrid I believe was the only one that survived in his AMM dominated apiary).


Just a thought or two.

If I remember right, lots of colonies have been imports from Belgium and Holland.

There are lots of writings about that White Isle, and it is necessary to invent them more? Black bees have beek on Britain since Ice Ace , known as Tundra Bees. Even France was tundra after Ice Ace.

20 years ago official history of honey bee was very different than now. Then genemapping changed everything. ... But illusion about black bee lives like fairytales.

Now Brother Adam has been mixed into these dreamings somehow.
.

 

[For want of a better word]

The DNA analyses carried out by the Apigenix laboratories and others proved that the Cornish Amm are genetically different from continental European Amm... although similarities exist.
In fact the research identified genetic differences between the various Cornish Amm, with those found and doing very well on the Rame peninsular being different from Amm in other areas of Cornwall.... Wales, IOM, Colonsay... Northumberland, Ulster and Eire etc etc
I seem to recall Dr Jonathan Ellis from University of Plymouth showing a phylogenic map / diagram at the B4 sponsored Eden Project conference in February.

Chons da

 

[SDM]

The DNA analyses carried out by the Apigenix laboratories and others proved that the Cornish Amm are genetically different from continental European Amm... although similarities exist.
In fact the research identified genetic differences between the various Cornish Amm, with those found and doing very well on the Rame peninsular being different from Amm in other areas of Cornwall.... Wales, IOM, Colonsay... Northumberland, Ulster and Eire etc etc
I seem to recall Dr Jonathan Ellis from University of Plymouth showing a phylogenic map / diagram at the B4 sponsored Eden Project conference in February.

Chons da

Ok so differences exist in fairly closely spaced areas. But what doesthat t prove?
If i took some french Amm to an isolated island, how long woukd it be before they showed differences to the parent stock. Millennia? A dozen generations?
With different selective pressuresin their new environments, i doubt it would take long.

 

[Beefriendly]

For what it's worth there were recordings of large scale colony deaths in many areas prior to IofW disease. They weren't on the same scale but areas did suffer huge losses from time to time.

I think the best guess (as there are no tissues left to examine from that time) was that the Acarine mites were the vector for a particular virulent form of Paralysis virus.
As we rarely see acarine mites these days (thanks thymol) we are unlikely to see the same disease reoccurring.

 

[Finman]

As we rarely see acarine mites these days (thanks thymol) we are unlikely to see the same disease reoccurring.

IT is formic acid which kills acarine mites.

 

[Beefriendly]

IT is formic acid which kills acarine mites.

Just goes to show you don't know everything.

 

[SDM]

IT is formic acid which kills acarine mites.

Menthol and thymol work too.