Listen with Martha

[Finman]

Menthol and thymol work too.

Yes, so it seems.

 

[For want of a better word]

Ok so differences exist in fairly closely spaced areas. But what doesthat t prove?
If i took some french Amm to an isolated island, how long woukd it be before they showed differences to the parent stock. Millennia? A dozen generations?
With different selective pressuresin their new environments, i doubt it would take long.

Nobody knows.

1000... 10,000.... 100,000 years???

My guess is that recombination within the species would take place, but even with the environmentally fittest bees surviving, there would remain a code within their DNA that would show up their origins... this is the work I believe Dr Jonathan Ellis has been researching.

I remember reading up on Anoles... a sort of lizzard thing... that live and make love on Caribbean islands.... 100s of sub species each adapted to different isolated islands and even spacial divisions within the tree canopy / ground.
Small phylogenic differences... but noticeable differences within the DNA, even showing where and when man had imported anoles from one island ( as pets?) devastating and eventually replacing the existing island sub species.

Perhaps you could find out and let us all know???

Chons da

 

[B+.]

If i took some french Amm to an isolated island, how long woukd it be before they showed differences to the parent stock. Millennia? A dozen generations?
With different selective pressuresin their new environments, i doubt it would take long.

You have to distinguish between two different types of "change".
The first is beekeeper induced (i.e. "selection") where you will see noticable changes (improvements) each generation so long as you controlled the mating process.
The second is natural (mutation) where individuals possessing advantageous changes gradually emerge. If the mutation is beneficial, it can gradually increase in the population as more, and more, individuals acquire the mutation over the generations. If the population is very big, or widely dispersed, it can take a long time (sometimes never) for all members to change. There has to be an opportunity for the members of the population to meet and reproduce for the next generation to acquire the genes. If they are too widely dispersed, or prevented from meeting by some natural barrier, it may never happen.

 

[SDM]

Does that take into account the honeybee's mastery of epigentics ?
I thought significant changes were possible within a generation.

 

[Finman]

You have to distinguish between two different types of "change"..

They are several

- buy new features and compare to your own hives

- selection of you own stock to keep high level and killing unwanted cases

- accident happen when you did wrong selection

- inbreeding

- hybridisation and strong results , and F2 generation quality from edge to edge

- I do not know any beekeeper, who waits a good mutation on his apiary

- believe miracles... Very usual breeding tool, like get mite resistant colony from tree hole or from heaven.
.

 

[Finman]

I thought significant changes were possible within a generation.

IT is if you buy a new stock. But original genes disappear in couple of generations.
.

 

[SDM]

IT is if you buy a new stock. But original genes disappear in couple of generations.
.

But how about when stock is moved to a new area and experiences different selective pressures.
Like when continental skepists bees are moved to the uk in framed hives.

 

[For want of a better word]

But how about when stock is moved to a new area and experiences different selective pressures.
Like when continental skepists bees are moved to the uk in framed hives.

Swarming was a problem to the framed hive community... but one welcomed by the skeppists methodology of beekeeping.
I read somewhere ( Possibly a Janet and John reader) that the German brown lowland bees were swarming as soon as they were made up from the packages, and the station master at Balls Green railway station ( Kent??? somewhere near Sevenoaks??) refused to unload bees as his wife had been so badly stung the previous month by the German bees she could not cook his meals or do his laundry for a fortnight!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

But how about when stock is moved to a new area and experiences different selective pressures.
Like when continental skepists bees are moved to the uk in framed hives.

UK is not so special as you imagine. You have imported there queens and not much problems have existed.

Europe is full of costal areas in many countries.

 

[B+.]

Does that take into account the honeybee's mastery of epigentics ?
I thought significant changes were possible within a generation.

Not genetic changes. The only change can come about during reproduction. You have the same genes you're born with. They don't usually change (except when something goes wrong e.g. cancer)

 

[B+.]

They are several

- buy new features and compare to your own hives

- selection of you own stock to keep high level and killing unwanted cases

- accident happen when you did wrong selection

- inbreeding

- hybridisation and strong results , and F2 generation quality from edge to edge

- I do not know any beekeeper, who waits a good mutation on his apiary

- believe miracles... Very usual breeding tool, like get mite resistant colony from tree hole or from heaven.
.

I think you're over-complicating things Finman. I was just highlighting that genes can be changed only during reproduction. Natural mutation occurs all of the time. So long as it isn't lethal, it can provide an advantage to the individual (i.e. the queen - which she can pass on to her female offspring or can influence other colonies through her drones - this is heritability). If the "change" is successfully transmitted to other virgin queens, it can begin to influence the local population. Given enough time, it can change the whole population (assuming it is beneficial enough)

 

[For want of a better word]

I think you're over-complicating things Finman. I was just highlighting that genes can be changed only during reproduction. Natural mutation occurs all of the time. So long as it isn't lethal, it can provide an advantage to the individual (i.e. the queen - which she can pass on to her female offspring or can influence other colonies through her drones - this is heritability). If the "change" is successfully transmitted to other virgin queens, it can begin to influence the local population. Given enough time, it can change the whole population (assuming it is beneficial enough)

Natural selection by the survival of the fittest ????... unless man starts meddling and you end up with Cockerpoos etc etc

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

Natural selection by the survival of the fittest ????... unless man starts meddling and you end up with Cockerpoos etc etc

Yeghes da

Human intervention isn't always bad. Sometimes it is beneficial.
The queen is polyandrous for a reason. That is how they capture new genes that (hopefully) are transmitted to the progeny and confer a benefit on the next generation. This could be against a novel pathogen or it could be behavioural e.g. overwintering on less stores, spring build-up to take advantage of early nectar/pollen sources, etc.

 

[SDM]

Not genetic changes. The only change can come about during reproduction. You have the same genes you're born with. They don't usually change (except when something goes wrong e.g. cancer)

So its just the expression that changes? Id always just assumed there would be some accompanying change

 

[B+.]

So its just the expression that changes? Id always just assumed there would be some accompanying change

No. Cancer isn't the expression of a gene. It's when it hasn't been coded properly and things have gone wrong (e.g. overproduction of a mis-read code).

 

[SDM]

I meant is it just the expression that changes in epigenetics

 

[Finman]

I think you're over-complicating things Finman. I was just highlighting that genes can be changed only during reproduction. Natural mutation occurs all of the time. So long as it isn't lethal, it can provide an advantage to the individual (i.e. the queen - which she can pass on to her female offspring or can influence other colonies through her drones - this is heritability). If the "change" is successfully transmitted to other virgin queens, it can begin to influence the local population. Given enough time, it can change the whole population (assuming it is beneficial enough)

What ever. I complicate nothing.

You can change genes on your apiary when you buy new genes. IT is fastest way to do that.

I studied genetics in university, not here.

To wait mutations... Not me.

Every animal breeder buy new genes. No one start to wait mutations.

 

[Finno]

Yep! It's cabin fever time again

 

[Finman]

Yep! It's cabin fever time again

In spring you can say that light activates too much brains.
.