Listen with Martha

[For want of a better word]

I was asking a serious question: How could Br Adam not be aware of an Amm population right on his doorstep? If such a population existed surely he, if anyone, would be aware of it. If such a population did not exist, where did it come from?

The only possibilities I can imagine are:
1. It existed and Br Adam wasn't aware of (unlikely).
2. It existed and he was aware of it (In which case, why did he cover up its existence?)
3. It did not exist so, if it exists now, where did it come from?

All of the above are important questions about beekeeping in that area. I will NOT be fobbed off with misdirection and "humour".

If BA had good native stocks of Amm on his doorstep as you put it, why did he chose a French Amm for his first experiments in hybridisation in his quest towards bee improvement??????
Your guess I suppose on what BA was up to are as good as anyone elses... perhaps nobody knows.....
But as a guess his pressing room did not have a lock fitted to it that conformed to BS6321!!

Chons da

 

[B+.]

Your guess I suppose on what BA was up to are as good as anyone elses... perhaps nobody knows.....
But as a guess his pressing room did not have a lock fitted to it that conformed to BS6321!!

I prefer not to guess.
There has to be someone on here with more/better information.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was asking a serious question: How could Br Adam not be aware of an Amm population right on his doorstep?.

The same question could be asked of the existence of AMM further afield - we know that Westest Wales and other places avoided the worst ravages of IOW disease.
Maybe he just chose to disregard all this as it didn't fit his agenda.

 

[B+.]

The same question could be asked of the existence of AMM further afield - we know that Westest Wales and other places avoided the worst ravages of IOW disease.
Maybe he just chose to disregard all this as it didn't fit his agenda.

I can understand him not knowing of Colonsay (a remote Scottish island) but Cornwall is less than 75 miles from his home abbey. The man travelled all the way to Tanzania to search for a bee (monticola) reported to be there by Ruttner. I don't believe he would be ignorant of a bee much nearer to home.
It's easy to accuse someone of having an agenda, particularly when they aren't here to defend themselves, but, would you really accuse a Benedictine monk without evidence?
Escaping the "worst ravages" doesn't mean they were immune though. It simply means they survived. Perhaps he was looking for cleaner stock and, if so, why did he choose French Amm over anything that was closer to hand?

I find all this fascinating. If only he'd had access to the internet and had written a blog!

 

[Finman]

.
Cheer, do you think that black bees are different genes 75 miles away, when they have been there 10 000 years. And when people know, that Cornwall has best bees everybody has brought those special queens to their apiary.

Cornwall bees have been mentioned even Roman history. They defended one castle.

 

[SDM]

The same question could be asked of the existence of AMM further afield - we know that Westest Wales and other places avoided the worst ravages of IOW disease.
Maybe he just chose to disregard all this as it didn't fit his agenda.

Perhaps he just thought that the bees of west wales were no place to start bee improvement.

 

[SDM]

.


Cornwall bees have been mentioned even Roman history. They defended one castle.

Classic !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Perhaps he just thought that the bees of west wales were no place to start bee improvement.

I've asked you before - for good reason I have you on ignore, please do me the courtesy of reciprocating.

 

[Beefriendly]

Maybe he just chose to disregard all this as it didn't fit his agenda.

You forget he started his project at a time when communication was basically telephone and letters. Today's instant information (like a forum with it's collective knowledge) just didn't exist. How would he know or find out about the existence of an isolated population of Welsh Amms. Indeed how do those claiming to use Welsh Amm's know they are Amm's and not benign mongrels?
If you read his books he had lots of complimentary things to say about our native Amm's as well as some truths reflecting the temper and honey gathering prowess of the Amm's around his neck of the woods...which is possibly why he sought out French Amms...if you read his travels in France you will find out what he thought about them.

Also, do not forget that the start of the various Buckfast lines was an Italian x English Amm cross.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You forget he started his project at a time when communication was basically telephone and letters.

I haven't, B+ obviously has (or choses to)

 

[B+.]

I haven't, B+ obviously has (or choses to)

No JBM. I haven't forgotten. I regularly tell my sons that we had to read BOOKS at school. They want everything accessible on a pc nowadays.
Nevertheless, it would have been interesting to see what people like Br Adam were thinking and what they were basing their decisions on.
Science moves on. Today, I would use breeding values. Br Adam probably had something similar, although not necessarily as sophisticated. In 100 years, breeders of the day will, no doubt, have even more sophisticated methods.

 

[Beefriendly]

I haven't, B+ obviously has (or choses to)

Or he was canny
Choice of a nice long all expenses paid trip through sunny France ( and all the other countries) checking out local bees, local wine and local food.
Or a day trip to rainy Cornwall with local greasy pasties, local warm beer and vicious local bees.
Where would you have gone

 

[B+.]

Or he was canny
Choice of a nice long all expenses paid trip through sunny France ( and all the other countries) checking out local bees, local wine and local food.
Or a day trip to rainy Cornwall with local greasy pasties, local warm beer and vicious local bees.
Where would you have gone

Germany....and so would (did) he. Germany was (and is) a long way ahead of us in bee breeding

 

[Beefriendly]

Nevertheless, it would have been interesting to see what people like Br Adam were thinking and what they were basing their decisions on.

It's all contained in his books and can be deduced from the complete breeding records of the various strains and what he hoped to incorporate from each sub strain. You just need to sit down and read them.
I still find them a fascinating insight into the character and thinking of what, to date, has been the most influential bee breeder of modern times.

 

[B+.]

It's all contained in his books and can be deduced from the complete breeding records of the various strains and what he hoped to incorporate from each sub strain. You just need to sit down and read them.
I still find them a fascinating insight into the character and thinking of what, to date, has been the most influential bee breeder of modern times.

What is there is superficial. The sort of stuff I'd be interested in isn't available

 

[Beefriendly]

What is there is superficial. The sort of stuff I'd be interested in isn't available

Well his thoughts and reasoning behind them are all there, which is what you asked.
His breeding records tell you what was crossed from what and with whom and when a new strain or line was created.
It was still an unfinished project when he died.
As I understand things the various lines where then spread around other enthusiastic Buckfast breeders and are maintained to this day. Although many improvements and crosses along BA's breeding principals are undertaken.

Perhaps HM can give us a master class on this one evening?

 

[SDM]

I've asked you before - for good reason I have you on ignore, please do me the courtesy of reciprocating.

Lol, so you can preach unhindered ?
Buy your own congregation if thats what you want. On a public forum ill do as i please as there's already a function for your private conversations.

 

[For want of a better word]

Well his thoughts and reasoning behind them are all there, which is what you asked.
His breeding records tell you what was crossed from what and with whom and when a new strain or line was created.
It was still an unfinished project when he died.
As I understand things the various lines where then spread around other enthusiastic Buckfast breeders and are maintained to this day. Although many improvements and crosses along BA's breeding principals are undertaken.

Perhaps HM can give us a master class on this one evening?

Some may be saddened to discover some of the hybrids available today bear little or no resemblance to the bees that BA "created".

I do not wish to be banned, so will say no more, as I realise this is a religious conviction to some!

Chons da

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

On a public forum ill do as i please

I suppose that includes trolling and harrassing female members promising you'll 'find them' as you do on other social media like facebook?
Anyway, enough of this, a specimen like you is not worth wasting time on.....back on ignore (you almost lasted 24 hours this time!)

 

[B+.]

Some may be saddened to discover some of the hybrids available today bear little or no resemblance to the bees that BA "created".

Do you have any actual experience of what Br Adam created?