Licensed or Generic Oxalic Acid - newish NBU advice!

[Arfermo]

Interesting that the new pdf BBKA leaflet that MM has provided the link to above doesn't mention sublimation at all. Yet they say trickle ONCE only pa when on this forum Hivemaker was espousing multiple sublimation treatments. How are any novices to make any sense of these conflicts?

I have only ever sublimated my lot once per annum mid winter and haven't lost any from varroa problems - dlq and starvation once each - otherwise no probs and wouldn't consider sublimation at any other time with the exception of swarm capture or shook swarm.

 

[itma]

The research paper I read showed that HMF formation is temperature dependent. If you keep your solution cool or 'even in the fridge' it will be OK for several months.
Alec

The problem that I was addressing was with bought-in ready-to-use Oxalic syrup solution.

Since you have no knowledge of when it was made up, or what storage conditions it has encountered before reaching you, it would be prudent to observe the use-by date on the package.
Which, as I posted, means it is now a bit early to be buying such a product for mid-winter use.
But certainly, cool storage (as indicated on the pack) is advisable.

And to reiterate, the risk from an out-of-date product is not that it would be ineffective on the varroa, but that it can become harmful to the bees.
The stuff is cheap and not worth taking chances with.
But do wash out and keep those Trickle2 bottles!

 

[BeeJayBee]

Oh that book with blank pages, that nobody looks at
or does the bee inspector ask to see it?

Yes, sometimes they do ask to see medicine records.

The BBKA leaflet now says the same,

The BBKA leaflet is dated 2007.

 

[isc26]

this link may give some additional info. Not sure it makes life any simpler!!

http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/vet/bee_cascade.aspx

 

[little_john]

If you stop and think about this for a moment - with OA sublimation, you're not actually treating the bees at all - unlike nosema or tracheal mites the varroa aren't inside the bees, they're piggy-backing on top of 'em.

So - treat the mites only (which is what I do) - no need then to keep Veterinary records for OA application. The bees just happen to be in the hive while the mites are being 'treated'.

Someone once said of this - that it was a cop-out ... (whatever that means)

I answered "suppose you have a monkey riding on your shoulder which may be carrying the Ebola virus. You ask for my help in case it scratches you, thus giving you the disease. I then shoot the monkey, which falls to the floor, dead.

Question. Have I shot you ... or have I shot the monkey ?"

I can see no difference between that scenario, and the OA/Honeybee/Varroa mite issue.

LJ

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you stop and think about this for a moment - with OA sublimation, you're not actually treating the bees at all - unlike nosema or tracheal mites the varroa aren't inside the bees, they're piggy-backing on top of 'em.



LJ

That's not really true, is it?

You are introducing into the hive (factory) a compound that works on the mites on the bees (workers) which produce your final product....honey.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Question. Have I shot you ... or have I shot the monkey ?"

it only becomes a concern if you start spanking it

 

[madasafish]

it only becomes a concern if you start spanking it

 

[Griffo]

Look on the CWJ website - it has the recipe on the OA order page

Excuse me but what is CWJ website ?

 

[itma]

CWynneJones is a bee equipment supplier.

 

[beebreeder]

C wyne jones

 

[itma]

C wyne jones

These days we can even put http://cwynnejones.com

 

[oliver90owner]

Excuse me but what is CWJ website ?

Joined up thinking is the key.

'Goggle' cwj, along with 'bees' and maybe 'oxalic acid' and it will appear.....

 

[einsteinagogo]

Hmm. Previous NBU guidance, certainly verbal from RBI but I think previous versions of NBU leaflets that I don't have here mentioned Oxuvar the Swiss product by Biovet AG. Made outside the EU, but as I recall registered in some EU states. The BBKA leaflet copied above still mentions it. If it has dropped off the NBU list that suggests they may have let registration lapse. It is still listed for sale from several suppliers, although expensive for what it is. Perhaps more an indication of how much effort and cash it takes to maintain registration than anything else. .

I suspect the Trickle2 stocking might have more to do with the short shelf life than approval of alternatives. Thornes may not want agents to hold stocks past sell by dates but will supply direct.

Most of the "official" advice (NBU, BBKA and major suppliers) seems to be concerned with two potential problems. First, the average beekeeper can't weigh and mix accurately. Second, the final solution doesn't keep at room temperature and it might not be ideal keeping it in a family fridge. If any association wanted to supply members, it wouldn't be hard to make up kits following the Oxuvar route; a prepared oxalic solution plus pre weighed sugar (plus a syringe maybe). Solves both the weighing problem and expiry problem.

Our local Agent did not stop because of the the short shelf life, but because or local discussions with Local Bee Inspector, and not wanting to sell an unlicensed product!

It will be interesting to see if T* remove it!

Yes, Oxuvar was mentioned last year by Bee Inspectors!

 

[einsteinagogo]

Buy some direct from Thornes, it is still listed in their catalogue, so order from that.

Yes, I'll have to now, it will just cost me the p&p! (and I always got it cheaper than from T*!)

 

[Hivemaker.]

It will be interesting to see if T* remove it!

If they do you can just buy the stuff they mix up themselves instead.

A ready mixed solution of sugar syrup and Oxalic Acid di-hydrate.
Suitable for trickling into seams of bees to control varroa.
This solution is prepared by ourselves, we can therefore guarantee the manufacturing date and short expiry date of the product.

http://www.thorne.co.uk/health-and-feeding/varroa/oxalic-based?product_id=5728

 

[wessexmario]

The BBKA leaflet now says the same,
oxalic_acid_cleaning_b13_1306864801.pdf

"The solution has a short shelf life once mixed with sugar-because the HMF
level in the solution rises and can become toxic to bees. Our advice is to
use the solution once in winter-and then safely dispose of the remainder-
down the drain."

That's safety advice?!
So, once it becomes toxic to wildlife, it then becomes acceptable to pour it down a drain, where it will either flow into a watercourse or back into the human food chain?

Every water board in the country will strongly disagree with advice to dispose of chemicals or medicines into drains, as would the Environment Agency.

The Oxalic Acid MSDS says:
http://www.jmloveridge.com/cosh/Oxalic Acid.pdf
"13. DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS:
DISPOSAL METHODS: This material and/or its container must be disposed of as hazardous waste according to Special Waste Regulations 1996 or according to local regulations, in compliance with Duty of Care Regulations and Special Waste Regulations."

I think the BBKA ought to revise that advice, as it's plainly wrong.

 

[MuswellMetro]

"The solution has a short shelf life once mixed with sugar-because the HMF
level in the solution rises and can become toxic to bees. Our advice is to
use the solution once in winter-and then safely dispose of the remainder-
down the drain."

That's safety advice?!
So, once it becomes toxic to wildlife, it then becomes acceptable to pour it down a drain, where it will either flow into a watercourse or back into the human food chain?

Every water board in the country will strongly disagree with advice to dispose of chemicals or medicines into drains, as would the Environment Agency.

The Oxalic Acid MSDS says:
http://www.jmloveridge.com/cosh/Oxalic Acid.pdf
"13. DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS:
DISPOSAL METHODS: This material and/or its container must be disposed of as hazardous waste according to Special Waste Regulations 1996 or according to local regulations, in compliance with Duty of Care Regulations and Special Waste Regulations."

I think the BBKA ought to revise that advice, as it's plainly wrong.

i have quite an old empty 2lb corroded oxalic tin lined with wax circa 1960s that clearly states for Pan and Drain Cleaning, Mix 1oz with one pint of water, it also says price 7d

Times have changed LOL

 

[wessexmario]

yep, I'm not saying that in practice a minute amount of oxalic acid will cause an environmental disaster, but a national body shouldn't be giving advice that goes against official advice and legislation.

 

[Finman]

.
It is very simple:

You have a digital kitchen balance (£15) and oxalic powder.

Then measure onto scale 100 g water, 100 g sugar and 7,5 g acid.

you get solution for 3-5 hives.

Check with coin, that you scale measures right. Cheapest may show wrong numbers in tiny loads. Two pence coin is 7.1 g
http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/coin-design-and-specifications/fifty-pence-coin


Cast extra solution away, because it is almost free.
.