Keeping Warre's commercially

[Rory Fields]

I'm prepared for the flak! I've already sunk thousands into various Nationals, but having read David Heaf's fascinating books and The Idle Beekeeper which was equally fascinating, I'm wondering if it's possible to keep bees commercially in a Warre type system (utilising my National equipment) of just towering brood boxes upon one another and taking the nadired boxes occasionally with minimal intervention/inspections apart from sublimation, largely for some out apiaries that are open to me but too far to bother travelling to every week during May and June? Bill Anderson cites the honey from such hives as being comparable to Manuka for UMF, presumably because honey recovered from it has come from previously inhabited brood cells that were then coated with propolis and refilled with honey? I've got a hydropress for my main crop of heather already so the faff and mess would be minimal. Worth experimenting with or just plain stupid? Heaf claims there are already several beefarmers doing this with Warre's but I've not heard of any. Grateful for any constructive input, cheers, R

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bill Anderson cites the honey from such hives as being comparable to Manuka

that sounds like a load of Billy Bollicks - par for the course for that mob really.
I can see a few issues - you will still be taking the crop off the top, just nadiring the empty boxes at the bottom - so still a lot of humping boxes. and what's the difference betweek nadiring loads of boxes during a flow and just dumping them on the top?

 

[ericbeaumont]

just towering brood boxes upon one another and taking the nadired boxes occasionally with minimal intervention/inspections

You'll be taking honey off the top and you can forget nadiring because your back won't last long.

It's not complicated: I worked for a honey company that used only BBs, no QX, and not even CBs. It's simple and effective and reduced swarming significantly, because by late spring/early summer colonies would be on 4 BBs, with one or two to come.

No need to get hung up on orthodoxy: Warrés, Nationals, they're just boxes in a stack or slices of a hollow tree trunk.

 

[rolande]

Because of the comparative low cost of setting warres up I've been playing around with a few warres on a purely hobby basis for a few years now, trying to fathom out whether it really would be practical on a commercial scale or just a labour sink. My thoughts from early on, and I've found no reason to change them, have been that the warre hive itself would work reasonably well *but* the warre methodology would kill any real chance of making a genuine profit over a period of years.

Interestingly, Bernhard Heuval (one of the more prominent commercial scale warre users) has now moved over to Buckfast style dadants and is using a management system suitable for that hive. Admittedly even his warre management appeared to be based on mainstream beekeeping rather than the orthodox warre style; no doubt that's the reason he succeeded in building a successful business (not taking away the fact that he's clearly a clever and thoughtful beekeeper).

My thoughts are, keep things simple by lifting as little as possible because the brood nest will tend to work it's way down the stack in the second half of the season anyway and brood comb renewal can be achieved without anywhere near as much lifting.

 

[Matty Brown]

Have a look at this site.
He is a commercial warre beekeeper in Australia with several hundred warre hives. Very interesting.https://malfroysgold.com.au/

 

[pargyle]

The clue is in the word 'commercial' ... if you want to make money from beekeeping then you have to look at the models that work in the location you are. If there was any advantage of moving to Warres then the likes of Murray Macgregor would be on to it like a ferret down a drainpipe.

I'm a hobbyist ..I experiment - my living does not depend upon my beekeeing so I can play. However, I've found my niche .. I run without queen excluders, I'm foundationless, with low impact inspections and I'm treatment free ... my customers tell me that my honey is the best they have ever tasted (and I have some really discerning customers). I don't think my way of keeping bees has a great deal to do with the taste - personally, I think it is more to do with the forage available in the apiary location but ...

If you are looking for some 'added value' to some of your honey crop then start and run a few colonies in a less conventional way and market the honey from those colonies separately and with the 'special' nature of its production. If it works ... well, you can always extend the 'special' colonies as time goes on. Viewed from a marketing standpoint anything you can do to differentiate your honey from the crop elsewhere has to be a benefit (I know .. the usual suspects will be along claiming you can only sell it as 'honey' but they are the short sighted ones that lose out).

You can run with just brood boxes or conventionally with supers and no excluders (they are only there for the convenience of the beekeeper) - you don't have to go the whole hog of Warre ... remember - the original concept of the Warre hive was that it would be the 'people's hive' .. allegedly using former champage crates as boxes and just top bars rather than frames - I can't think that the Abbe Warre would be recommending his ways as a commercial option.

 

[boywonder]

Portuguese reversivel hives (used widely in the south) are run - as I understand it - on a Warre-like system, but in boxes (not dissimilar to nationals in size) with moveable frames. That is to say they generally use a single size of box, no excluder, and under-super.

... So it's clearly viable as a commercial 'method'.

Like @pargyle , I am experimenting - both with a standard Warre, and with foundationless nationals, run on similar principles (and with solid floor, XYZ intrances etc...).

Whilst I've only been running the latter for a couple of years, my initial thoughts are that the bees seem more settled. Swarming is minimal, and Queens are not getting replaced as frequently. Maybe just coincidence.

On the honey quality (from the Warre), whilst I think you'd be hard-pushed to assert it contained beneficial compounds equivalent to Manuka, the fact that the comb has previously been used for brood, and the fact that, when crushed, pollen in any cells bleeds out into the honey in great quantity both mean that the resulting honey I have extracted is super, super rich and aromatic. I've had it described to me as 'honey to the power of ten' and 'honey on steroids'.

Of course, those who choose not to believe me are welcome to opine that it's all bollocks

 

[Buzby]

Have you had a look at Tim Rowes beekeeping method using the one size box. The Rose Hive Method

 

[Mint Bee]

If you are looking for some 'added value' to some of your honey crop then start and run a few colonies in a less conventional way and market the honey from those colonies separately and with the 'special' nature of its production

The Australian Warre guy makes some frankly extraordinary claims about the honey. However, as he sells his produce for over 20 pounds a pound, he's successfully found a profitable niche market. good luck to him! My back started to twitch just looking at all those boxes to shift for honey harvesting

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

allegedly using former champage crates

That was Langstroth - different religious calling

 

[ericbeaumont]

That was Langstroth - different religious calling

Alternative story has it that Langstroth used crates left over from a delivery of stained glass.

 

[ericbeaumont]

when crushed, pollen in any cells bleeds out into the honey in great quantity both mean that the resulting honey I have extracted is super, super rich and aromatic

Even honey extracted from brood combs will have a slight 'biscuity' flavour of pollen.

 

[boywonder]

Even honey extracted from brood combs will have a slight 'biscuity' flavour of pollen.

Positively oozing out in this case:

 

[Erichalfbee]

Even honey extracted from brood combs will have a slight 'biscuity' flavour of pollen.

I had a super last year that was a third pollen. I crushed and strained it and frankly the pollen completely overwhelmed the honey, as you might expect and it was inedible. I kept it though and it is making a cracking starter for bread

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Alternative story has it that Langstroth used crates left over from a delivery of stained glass.

that was to keep the prohibitionists happy.
it has also been said that he dismantled the champagne cases to make his prototypes, so the only restrictions on him was the length of the hives not width.

 

[Murox]

.... the comb has previously been used for brood, and the fact that, when crushed, pollen in any cells bleeds out into the honey in great quantity both mean that the resulting honey I have extracted is super, super rich and aromatic.

Even honey extracted from brood combs will have a slight 'biscuity' flavour of pollen.

I crushed and strained some combs with a mix of last years heather and floral mix earlier in the season. The resulting flavour is very distinctive, luckily my sister-in-law liked the flavour, so she has inherited a few pounds to keep her going.

 

[Antipodes]

my customers tell me that my honey is the best they have ever tasted

That's only because they haven't tasted mine

 

[ericbeaumont]

prohibitionists happy

Intriguing: I didn't know the back story of prohibition, or that 13 states banned liqour in 1850; while wandering down that road, came across plans to build an original Langstroth hive which stated that US timber in that period was cut to 7/8".

 

[jeff33]

I might try to manage a couple of hives that way next year. @pargyle @ericbeaumont how do you stack the boxes when not using the Qx? Assuming they are overwintered in single or dble, do you add the boxes below for the brood nest to make it's way down as frames get filled with nectar?

 

[jeff33]

that was to keep the prohibitionists happy.
it has also been said that he dismantled the champagne cases to make his prototypes, so the only restrictions on him was the length of the hives not width.

No chance of making anything decent out of Cava or Prosecco crates!!