keeping a swarm from going

[Hebeegeebee]

If the bees chose the hive they they are very unlikely to move out of it, so no queen excluder necessary. You only need the excluder if you force them to stay where they would not chose to go - and then only for a short while.

If a colony swarmed with a clipped queen, she could well get lost and the bees return (often you can find her under the hive or somewhere close-by if you get to her in good time but that's another topic).

Is this the prime (aborted) swarm or could you call it a false swarm or is the next actual and functional swarm with the oldest virgin the prime? or is it a secondary swarm? Or do we just call it Janet and be done with it?

 

[Cussword]

In my town their are gentlemen that use that name on a Friday night.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If the bees chose the hive they they are very unlikely to move out of it, so no queen excluder necessary. You only need the excluder if you force them to stay where they would not chose to go - and then only for a short while.

If a colony swarmed with a clipped queen, she could well get lost and the bees return (often you can find her under the hive or somewhere close-by if you get to her in good time but that's another topic).

Is this the prime (aborted) swarm or could you call it a false swarm or is the next actual and functional swarm with the oldest virgin the prime? or is it a secondary swarm? Or do we just call it Janet and be done with it?

The prime swarm went with the clipped queen - just because they returned later after they lost her means nowt - the next time they go (with a virgin) it's a cast. Another reason people shouldn't bang on about a swarm being a cast or a prime just because of the size of it.

 

[BeeJayBee]

If a colony swarmed with a clipped queen, she could well get lost and the bees return (often you can find her under the hive or somewhere close-by if you get to her in good time but that's another topic).

Is this the prime (aborted) swarm or could you call it a false swarm or is the next actual and functional swarm with the oldest virgin the prime? or is it a secondary swarm?

A prime swarm contains a mated queen and about half the bees of the originating colony.

A cast swarm contains a virgin queen and about half the bees of the originating colony.

If multiple queen cells aren't destroyed by either the first queen out or the workers (or a beekeeper), then each subsequent cast will still contain about half the remaining bees and the original colony will, effectively, swarm itself out of existence because the size of both the remaining colony and later casts will probably be too small to overwinter without either help or a lot of good luck.

 

[pargyle]

Pargyle
There's a solitary confinement flag? Must say surprised that you ever had to fly it! Finny, not so much of a surprise! (sorry finny)

Btw assume banned means he can't post but he could still read the forum as no log in required

Yes, behind my fluffy exterior lurks a barely constrained forum sociopath ! I got banned for brawling with Finman and then again for an altercation with another forum member (only for a short time). Once you get banned you can't see the forum - even as a guest without logging in, can't post (obviously) and can't PM people or receive PM's ... you are truly isolated from the forum. It's even clever enough to recognise if you try and register under a different user name !! (yeh ... I tried !). The 'banned' flag goes up under your name ... a badge of shame ...

 

[MikeT]

"He now equals my record of two episodes of confinement .. and is rapidly heading for Finman's total .... well at least on this forum anyway !!

JBG's ban must be a record - 2 bans in 8 months on joining the forum, and 500 posts between bans.

Hopefully he will learn but I doubt it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

well he doesn't seem to have learn much about beekeeping so what's the chances eh?

 

[Cussword]

well he doesn't seem to have learn much about beekeeping so what's the chances eh?

We shouldn't kick a man while he's down, maybe he will learn this time.


Who am I kidding

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

What got him banned: was it #53?

 

[stucat]

I wasn't going to get involved in this one, but I have checked some of my books, some date back to 1930s and the old MAFF bulletins. They all state as follows.

A prime swarm is a large swarm with a mated queen who has been laying eggs. She is starved for a few days before the swarm emerges to make her fly better.

A cast is a secondary swarm (smaller than a primary swarm) with an unmated "virgin" queen.

I was also taught this by my Old Rural Science Teacher, who in the 1960s was regarded as the authority on beekeeping in Wiltshire.

So Jonny I think eating some humble pie is required as you are totally wrong and an apology to the learned Beeks who have tried to correct your mistake, and received abuse from you in return.

Surely the defining characteristic of a cast swarm in that passage is that a "cast is smaller" ?
Would that not mean that if the first swarm was headed by a virgin its a prime as long as its the biggest ?
The passage refers to the natural process of swarming and does not really clarify whether this artificial situation would be a prime or not.
What amazes me is the manner people debate on here, 1 question, 60 odd replies and about 5 of them actually addressing the op's issue. The rest just childish bickering.
It's doesn't make this seem like a very friendly place.

 

[Tremyfro]

Surely the defining characteristic of a cast swarm in that passage is that a "cast is smaller" ?
Would that not mean that if the first swarm was headed by a virgin its a prime as long as its the biggest ?
The passage refers to the natural process of swarming and does not really clarify whether this artificial situation would be a prime or not.
What amazes me is the manner people debate on here, 1 question, 60 odd replies and about 5 of them actually addressing the op's issue. The rest just childish bickering.
It's doesn't make this seem like a very friendly place.

This seems to be back where we were!
It is all in the wording. In this case.....Prime ....refers to....Best.....as in Best Chance of survival....The Best Swarm is the biggest and has a mated, laying queen in it....therefore she gets to work immediately her girls pull some comb...in the new location. Any other swarm is a cast and will have a virgin queen...which will take some time getting to work as she still has to mate successfully and then start laying. Even if for some reason...as in interference from a Beekeeper....the first swarm to leave the hive doesn't take the queen but takes a virgin....it will be a cast....it doesn't take the title of Prime because of the delay in being able to lay successfully and make the propagation a success.
Anyway...think I've got that right. Simple really.
I think there is often discord because the language of Beekeeping is misunderstood. It is easy to think you have understood until an explanation is made by more experienced beekeepers. Mostly, it is a friendly forum and everyone is very helpful...especially when the same questions are asked over and over. Looking back in Google on the forum will bring up lots of threads on a subject you may be interested in.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Building on what's already been said by Tremyfro, and going full circle.

Surely the defining characteristic of a cast swarm in that passage is that a "cast is smaller" ?

MikeT has described what happens with one colony that might produce more than one swarm so ...

Start with one colony of bees that is preparing to swarm - there are queen cells. Once the first queen cells are sealed the colony is likely to swarm.

1) The first swarm to leave will contain the old, laying, mated, queen and about half the bees. This is the prime swarm. It is likely to contain enough bees and a laying queen, so the new colony should be immediately viable and will more than likely build up sufficient numbers for winter as well as giving some honey.

This is the 'load of hay' swarm.

2) Two or three days after the a new queen emerges from her cell, provided there are other maturing queen cells, the colony is likely to swarm again. This will be before the new queen has taken her mating flight(s).

This swarm will contain an unmated, virgin, queen and also about half the bees from the colony. This swarm may be about a quarter of the size of the first swarm because it will leave only 8-10 days after the prime swarm and will take half of the bees. (Half of half a colony is a quarter.) Okay, some bees laid by the old queen will have been emerging from their cells, but no new eggs will have been laid since that queen was taken away in the first swarm, and old foragers will have been dying off.

The queen in this cast swarm may take two or three weeks to start laying, depending on local conditions, so it could be as long as 9 weeks from swarming (3 weeks before the queen lays any eggs; 3 weeks eggs to bee; 3 weeks inside before foraging) before there are any new active foragers bees. That's over two months, and tests the viability of the colony.

This is the 'silver spoon' swarm. (Even now the price of a 'load' of hay would buy several silver spoons.)

Would that not mean that if the first swarm was headed by a virgin its a prime as long as its the biggest ?

No, because a prime swarm always contains a mated queen. It is the best swarm to get because the queen will start laying immediately.

A swarm containing an unmated queen will take a long time to get going, it is a cast. Sometimes it is 'cast' (thrown) in with a colony that already contains a mated queen.

By the way, a swarm is not 'led' by the queen. The workers make the decisions. They reduce the current, and laying, queen's food supply so she slims down to a weight at which she can fly. They make her fly with the swarm, not the other way round.

And separately ...
Wally Shaw's booklet "There are queen cells in my hive", really is worth reading - and worth reading several times until the information sinks in.
http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/a012queencells.pdf

 

[MikeT]

Brilliant explanations by both BeeJayBee and Tenyflo. Hopefully this will be the end of this thread.

Stucat we are a friendly bunch, and much can be learnt from this forum, it is very few who have been rude and aggressive in resent days.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

No, because a prime swarm always contains a mated queen. It is the best swarm to get because the queen will start laying immediately.

I think the core of this disagreement is right here. Is the Prime swarm the first, the most viable, or the biggest? With no Supreme Court to give a final verdict, we have to accept that different people will use the term in different ways. For example, this rather useful pamphlet from a reputable source http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/117428/bee-swarm-control.pdf points out that in the case of a clipped queen, a virgin will eventually be found to head a prime swarm.

ADD And here is Seeley discussing the genetic "merits" of a prime swarm being headed by mother or daughter https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Vuz_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq="prime+swarm"+seeley ENDADD

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think the core of this disagreement is right here. Is the Prime swarm the first, the most viable, or the biggest?

Well, as you seem determined to stir the ashes let's look at it from it's early use (as we are talking 'prime' here)
Before Lorenzo Langstroth et al got involved bees were kept in skeps so there was no queen clipping and anyway, bees swarming was an essential part of the continuity of apiculture. Beekeeping was prevalent in monasteries therefore we can be safe in arguing that the word 'prime' comes from the Latin for 'first' (as in Prime - the first service in the liturgical day)
Because securing a swarm from the skep was essential in having a viable colony for the following year, and as skep beekeepers seemed to be more in tune with the bees than us nowadays they would sit and wait for the first (prime) swarm to leave the skep, catch it and house it in a new skep - see heathland beekeeping (the only decent beekeeping related stuff on yootoob) episodes 3 (prime swarm season) and 4 (cast season)

So, as the first swarm to issue from a 'natural' colony would always be headed (let's not go into the semantics of that now) by a mated queen,

the definiton of a prime swarm is one headed by a mated queen​

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Size Matters?

As for size......... well that is very subjective - yes, a prime would be the largest to issue from a particular colony and casts would be smaller again but it's actual size would depend on the size of the original colony
so for someone to state 'it was the size of a rugby ball/orange so it must be a prime/cast(e!!)' is a bit naiive.:
Example: last month I took a queen away from a colony in a nuc (one sealed QC found in the hive which loudly rang each and every bell as a classic supersedure cell) belt and braces action really, and no kit or time at the out apiary to do anything else. Unfortunately, there were two QC's - and unbelievably it was on the frame I took away with the queen (in my defence, it was a very well camouflaged cell, and even now on examining the vacated cell I would not have recognized it as a QC if it had bitten me on the a.......excuse me, doorbell )
So long story short (why is it when anybody says that, they take ages to get to the point) away swarmed lovely,gentle, prolific 2014 queen with her swarm. On examining the nuc with remaining bees a few days later - I would have said that the prime swarm issued from that nuc would have been about the size of a err. JAFFA.
Likewise I caught a swarm in a hedge a few weeks ago about the size of a rugby ball - the bees all smartly trooped into the hive within minutes, so I'm confident the queen is in there - no eggs yet!

 

[pargyle]

I think the core of this disagreement is right here. Is the Prime swarm the first, the most viable, or the biggest? With no Supreme Court to give a final verdict, we have to accept that different people will use the term in different ways. For example, this rather useful pamphlet from a reputable source http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/117428/bee-swarm-control.pdf points out that in the case of a clipped queen, a virgin will eventually be found to head a prime swarm.

ADD And here is Seeley discussing the genetic "merits" of a prime swarm being headed by mother or daughter https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Vuz_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq="prime+swarm"+seeley ENDADD

Well ... I'm not convinced that either of those texts are sufficient evidence to suggest that a VIRGIN queen will leave with a PRIME swarm ... The first is a paper from New South Wales min of ag so if they are anything like our lot I would not rely on anything much that they say.

Seeley .. if you read it all again .. is not suggesting that a Virgin will leave with the prime swarm if the old queen is prevented or unable to leave with a swarm but that one of her daughters (created by the colony who want to swarm) will eventually go with a swarm. There is ambiguity in the text as to whether the colony would wait for the virgin to be mated or whether a virgin would leave with a swarm .. and indeed, there is no mention of this being a cast rather than a prime swarm ... so, you are using an omission to prove the point.

So .. as everyone has said earlier ... A prime swarm has a mated queen ... END OF !!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

(let's not go into the semantics of that now)

Thanks, JBM; that makes perfect sense to me - some of the talk above along the lines of "Prime, as in beef" did not - so the Prime or FIRST swarm will (given Mobius-style caveats / semantics) in the absence of external interference contain a mated Q. (Rather than the prime/"best" swarm is the one with the mated Q). But we have no Supreme Court, unless we appoint ourselves thus...

 

[Beeman of Barton]

Swarm

I agree with Heather - but also after 3 days remove the queen excluder and put on a feeder because they have a lot of foundation to draw. After 3 days the bees will have eaten the stores they brought with the and excreted any disease they brought with those stores and should it be a new queen she will need to get out on mating flights.

 

[steve56616]

I lost a huge swarm today. They left a few days ago and got them back. Next morning gone again. Collected them yesterday and put them in a nuc but probably a bit small but running out of equipment.
My question is: Were the frames wrong or nuc wrong?
First attempt was on drawn comb that had been extracted last week but left for bees to clean up. They didn't stay.
Second attempt was in a spare nuc with new wax foundation and still the left. Gone for good now as no where to be seen.