Is possible to be cruel to Honey Bees

[The Cumbrian]

You're quite right of course- but, as I say, it's a compromise. The way I look at it, animals have died for my benefit, but a lot less than if I eat meat several times a week- and I think compromising my own health would be going too far.

Life is never black and white, always shades of grey.

Sorry to disappoint you but it will be exactly the same number. All the males would (in a dairy herd be sold to rear for meat. Giving them a life.

If everyone were a lacto-vegetarian they would be slaughtered at birth. I think a life all be it short is better than a life of a couple of hours.

Also all the purely beef cattle would be slaughtered as there was no use for them.

Personally I am not sure your maths "adds up" if you see what I mean.

 

[user 6228]

Sorry to disappoint you but it will be exactly the same number. All the males would (in a dairy herd be sold to rear for meat. Giving them a life.

If everyone were a lacto-vegetarian they would be slaughtered at birth. I think a life all be it short is better than a life of a couple of hours.

Also all the purely beef cattle would be slaughtered as there was no use for them.

Personally I am not sure your maths "adds up" if you see what I mean.

Lovely discussion, but this is getting a bit far from the poll subject. I will start a thread on "what constitutes cruelty to Honey bees " later.

Its so hard not to jump in here and drive it even further off topic but I will resist

 

[Skyhook]

Also all the purely beef cattle would be slaughtered as there was no use for them.

Personally I am not sure your maths "adds up" if you see what I mean.

All the beef cattle are slaughtered as things are. I think you would find people would stop breeding them (except for 'museum' purposes). Beef is not a way of disposing of all the cattle that would otherwise overrun our countryside.

The same would apply to all the pigs, ducks, chickens, turkeys, fish etc I haven't eaten.

You may want to check your sums.

 

[mbc]

Sorry to disappoint you but it will be exactly the same number. All the males would (in a dairy herd be sold to rear for meat. Giving them a life.

If everyone were a lacto-vegetarian they would be slaughtered at birth. I think a life all be it short is better than a life of a couple of hours.

Also all the purely beef cattle would be slaughtered as there was no use for them.

Personally I am not sure your maths "adds up" if you see what I mean.

Bull dairy calves are normally shot shortly after birth and taken to places like dog food factories or hunt kennels round my way ( and thats the lucky ones that dont get shipped to France for veal production )

 

[The Cumbrian]

Bull dairy calves are normally shot shortly after birth and taken to places like dog food factories or hunt kennels round my way ( and thats the lucky ones that dont get shipped to France for veal production )

Not so round here when I last worked with agricultural animals - admittedly
quite a number of years ago now.

 

[victor meldrew]

I recall a case in Morcambe I think where a young female process worker was found guilty as charged in the crown court for cruelty to shrimps , apparently she was in the habit of dropping live ones onto a hot plate and delighting in seeing them writhe in agony ! Nice
VM

 

[chycarne]

Ok fascinating... in answering the actual question, i would have to say yes it is possible to be cruel to a bee... any deliberate mistreatment would be cruel eg not feeding for winter so allowing to starve, being cruel to be kind would be treatment for varroa. being cruel for the good of all would be AFB burn out (or in actually). I would define cruel and being presenting something that given the choice the organism being subjetced the something would move away from--- even amoeba move away from some chemicals in water for example, therefore forcing something to continue recieving a stimulus it has tried to move away from is cruel. even plants grow away from things they dont like and towards things they do like.
sentient... hmmm i would define that as being aware enough of its environment to make a response movement.
as to dominion and such like thoughts i have an annoying set of thoughts that while they power me in the "god etc" direction i also do not think we have the right to ride roughsod over everything. i will respond to pm's if anyone is curious about my life views but this aint the place.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bull dairy calves are normally shot shortly after birth and taken to places like dog food factories or hunt kennels round my way ( and thats the lucky ones that dont get shipped to France for veal production )

Hunt kennels take them purely as an act of courtesy and good service - no nourishment worth talikng about in a dairy calf a couple of days old it's more of a hassle with processing the paperwork and disposing of the bones. believe me I have experience of it.
I had a school pal who was a vegematerian but who didn't mind wearing leather shoes (one of the few in my class who could afford to) because it was a by product of meat production not actually eating the thing!!
Life itself is inherently cruel - lion eats poor little bambi but that's OK in our eyes because it's commentated on by David Attenborough bambi is still dead though. Wanton cruelty is a different matter, but no one seems to mind gassing the odd fly or leaving it die stuck to a bit of paper.
To leave bees starve when you could easily avoid it I think could be classed as cruel there's probably other examples but that's a start from me.

Very Biblical, Ben. You'll be telling us next that animals have no souls
The belief that anything has a soul is biblical!
am truly incredulous that a young man of such tender years could think that we have a right to have dominion over other species. Do they teach that in school these days?
A bit condescending to Ben I think, in my opinion this 'young man of tender years' has also spent a little bit of time thinking of this one, check the Bible because that 'right' also implies a responsibility towards those creatures we have 'dominion' over.
Half the problem with the world today we have gone totally over to secularism (just as a few centuries ago it was the other way.) and maybe it would be better if that was taught in school because bugger all of social responsibility seems to be taught IMHO, Ben seems to be one of the exceptions

 

[Erichalfbee]

am truly incredulous that a young man of such tender years could think that we have a right to have dominion over other species. Do they teach that in school these days?
A bit condescending to Ben I think, in my opinion this 'young man of tender years' has also spent a little bit of time thinking of this one, check the Bible because that 'right' also implies a responsibility towards those creatures we have 'dominion' over.
Half the problem with the world today we have gone totally over to secularism (just as a few centuries ago it was the other way.) and maybe it would be better if that was taught in school because bugger all of social responsibility seems to be taught IMHO, Ben seems to be one of the exceptions

No condescension intended. I wondered where the idea that other species exist on this planet "to serve us" came from. Yes we do indeed use some for our own purpose, and I have no argument whatsoever with that but the notion that they are here for that purpose is nonsensical. At sixteen years of age I certainly could not have come to a similar conclusion without guidance. I have not met Ben and do not know him at all save through his comments on this forum. If that opinion is his entirely then I apologise for the reference to school…it was largely a throw away comment.

 

[Storm™]

A bit condescending to Ben I think, in my opinion this 'young man of tender years' has also spent a little bit of time thinking of this one, check the Bible because that 'right' also implies a responsibility towards those creatures we have 'dominion' over.

Dear Go.....Lo...... Heav...... sigh FFS, this is not a religious issue...... Thankfully. The bible has NO place in the respect and moral care of animals. And neither should any other work of total fiction. It comes down to moral attitudes ... whatever the origin of those moral attitudes. I find it laugheable in the extreme if someone were to try and enter debate using the Bible as a moral anchor. pffffffffffff it would mean that anyone who did not believe in its clap trap was not entitled to a voice.

 

[Bcrazy]

I have not read the whole of this debate but may i remind members that the bee has a nervous system through its body so can a bee detect pain as a way of cruelty? The ganglia of the nervous system all reports back to the brain of the bee. So in my opinion the bee will detect some form of discomfort and or pain if these ganglia are pressured in any way.
On another topic does the honey bee have 1 or five hearts?

Mo

 

[Vergilius]

And neither should any other work of total fiction.

Each to their own Storm... 1.5 billion people may dissagree with you on this one.

Ben P

 

[Storm™]

Each to their own Storm... 1.5 billion people may dissagree with you on this one.

Ben P

Ben I'm pagan so no stranger to religious belief. However I have read the bible a couple of times end to end. Good stories and obviously has a base in truth but to be taken as a doctrine is in my opinion misguided. Also having done a lot (years worth) of pagan study - I can safely say that the construct that is Christianity is a cobbled together patchwork of robbed belief - mostly robbed from paganism. As you say each to their own. Christianity is in it's purest form is a compelling belief. Christians are not compelling in the slightest by act and word and deed. I have never had the misfortune to meet such a bunch of hypocritical judgemental zealots in all my born. But as you say, each to their own. I find it comforting to know that many churches were built by the very pagans Christianity sought to stamp out lol. And in Exeter cathedral there are more green men than saints lol.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Each to their own Storm... 1.5 billion people may dissagree with you on this one.

Ben P

and the other 5+ billion would agree

 

[Bcrazy]

Re posts above.

What the bloody hell has this got to do with beekeeping?

Mo

 

[mbc]

surely its time the adult section was re-instated.
nights are drawing in

 

[Vergilius]

surely its time the adult section was re-instated.
nights are drawing in

I wouldn't be let in lol

 

[Vergilius]

green men

So you believe in these then???

 

[chycarne]

cant resist, although this no longer goes with the origional question but i have to respond a bit more ... is there other life in the universe?- of course there must be however can we prove it?- not yet! please dont start an argument on here about faith and life and the universe i admit i would join in as it is something that fascinates me but it isnt beekeeping...

 

[Storm™]

So you believe in these then???

I believe in the energy of nature Ben. I believe in its ability to balance.The green man's name is unfortunate, as it is a representation of that energy. Early mans attempt to give familiar structure to a gut feeling they had perhaps. Or our poor interpretation of what early man may have called it. Widely believed to be a representation of Bacchus but the dots cannot be fully connected yet. So our green man may be, or may be not. Man because men are all powerful (roaring with laughter).... sigh..... but nature is androgynous in its energy. So as a representation of the energies of nature in a physical form I think it suits. Better than a symbol of the beginning of its own demise dont you think?