Is possible to be cruel to Honey Bees

[Storm™]

cant resist, although this no longer goes with the origional question but i have to respond a bit more ... is there other life in the universe?- of course there must be however can we prove it?- not yet! please dont start an argument on here about faith and life and the universe i admit i would join in as it is something that fascinates me but it isnt beekeeping...

When you dig a hole in the earth and you remove a square foot of it and hold it up..... in all probability if you could do this in the blink of an eye, you could catch a small baby that was sat in the grass, or a bird, worms, microbes by the billion, a mouse a snail, an ant a beatle.

So in one small square foot of earth there are life forms from bacteria to humans ....possibly ......so from the very bottom to the top of evolution. In one square foot of earth. Thats all possible and is scientific fact. And yet in the vastness of space - a vastness which cannot be measured, a worrying amount of people (minus 1.5 billion apparently) say there is nothing more than us. LOL...... yeah.

Oh and whats this got to do with beekeeping - nothing - the same as being cruel to the honey bee has nothing to do with BEEKEEPING - it only has something to do with bees in the respect that the question was asked about them. And in order to quantify it as a cruelty you have to gauge that by all animals and your experiences. And that inevitably has to involve MORALS which have nothing to do with beekeeping either. If you dont like it - get it moved.

 

[Vergilius]

and the other 5+ billion would agree

Christianity is the majority though (and yes I have left out 600 million to make up for those who are Christian by denomination, but do not actually believe...)

Ben P

PS to the OP: Sorry about this thread's continual drift away from topic!!!

 

[Skyhook]

Re posts above.

What the bloody hell has this got to do with beekeeping?

Mo

Nothing. But the nights are drawing in, the bees are going to bed and we're getting bored already. And this is getting interesting!

 

[Storm™]

Pretty Religious Graphic Interlude

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Please note the Combo Kings of religion - Christianity lol - the swiss army knife of religions.

 

[Storm™]

On another topic does the honey bee have 1 or five hearts?

Mo

Which has what to do with the OP ..... slappy wristy .....Admin cooooo eeeee Admin..........LOL

 

[Drew]

Christianity is the majority though (and yes I have left out 600 million to make up for those who are Christian by denomination, but do not actually believe...)

Ben P

PS to the OP: Sorry about this thread's continual drift away from topic!!!

Errrrr majority of what?

1.5 bill or even 2.1 bill is not even close to a majority of 7+ bill

 

[Skyhook]

Christianity is the majority though (and yes I have left out 600 million to make up for those who are Christian by denomination, but do not actually believe...)

Ben P

PS to the OP: Sorry about this thread's continual drift away from topic!!!

No, it's quite a small minority. With a global population of 7 billion, 3,500,000,001 christians would be needed for a majority. Christians may form the largest single minority- I don't know, I don't have the figures- but if your figures are correct, you'd need a lot of other belief systems to form a coalition- though lets hope we never go back to theocracy!

 

[Storm™]

He's saying its the largest combined majority of belief. In the respect that of the worlds population of people, the largest majority of singular belief belongs to Christianity.

HOWEVER BEN - 600 million leeway for those born as Christans but do not practice LOL. I think we are massaging something there and its staying floppy through lack of interest. There is no way you could account for that figure. I would guess "most" born as Christians have no interest in following Christianity. However there is that large island off the coast of Cuba full of chimps who believe anything as long as its edible, wearable, killable. So I spose anything is possible. But you have no proof of a figure for it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would guess "most" born as Christians have no interest in following Christianity.

They like the input for hatch match and dispatch though.
The family just buried...or should I say burnt... my father-in-law. Local vicar would not officiate as the deceased and his wife never attended church.

 

[Skyhook]

He's saying its the largest combined majority of belief. In the respect that of the worlds population of people, the largest majority of singular belief belongs to Christianity.

I realise that- but the largest single minority is still not a majority. It may appear to be semantics, but I think I detect a bit of spin.

 

[Storm™]

There are two things that should take priority in the "figures analysis" and that is:
1. How many of those born as Christians or otherwise who are "Christian" - remain so over a long period of time....

2. The "Christianity" figure represents an amalgamation of all religions that recognise Christ. Most of which would let the other burn in a fire filled hell than agree with their interpretation of the Bible or other book.

Which leads me nicely onto - Christianity - the religion which does not trust in the literal meaning of the good book, but which feels the need to put a modern spin on its stories and how they relate to the parishioners/local communities circumstance via a bloke in a frock telling them "what I think this means is.......fill in the blank". A man. A man in a frock giving his interpretation of what a story means in modern times. THE WORD OF GOD - not good enough - has to be rehashed for a modern audience by a lowly man. Hmmmmm is that faith, blind faith or pyramid selling with no Tupperware.... and faith in THAT one MAN being right. Thats more than faith thats delusion.

 

[For want of a better word]

Has the RSPCA ever brought forward a prosecution for cruelty to honey bees?

 

[user 6228]

After 90 odd replies I will make my own views evident...
My basic views come from growing up (a long time ago) in a farming community where strangely to some, farmers, love their livestock yet send it to slaughter and being brought up with animals (My reactions to cerain situations seem to be more dog/pack animal like than anything).
My position is: if i take care of an animal I should ensure it does not suffer unnecessarily, separated from the fact I might kill it. If i kill it I should not waste it.
E.g. I like pigs, I could see having one as a pet, they are intelligent, responsive animals. I eat pigs, I butcher them on my kitchen table. I want the pigs I eat to had lived well and not suffered.
Bees, The more I research, the more I find bees are not simple automata. The more I am with bees the more I learn they have depth in their behaviour. After seeing a bee on my wrist then react to the movement and then still obviously relax, I find I must extend the same treatment to bees as all livestock. It may have six legs but it is (especially as colony) a sophisticated being, it deserves the respect of being treated as such.
I need to to be able to look the the animals/insects in my care the eye if I kill them, and then be able to look at myself in the mirror and say I did well by them.

 

[For want of a better word]

After 90 odd replies I will make my own views evident...
My basic views come from growing up (a long time ago) in a farming community where strangely to some, farmers, love their livestock yet send it to slaughter and being brought up with animals (My reactions to cerain situations seem to be more dog/pack animal like than anything).
My position is: if i take care of an animal I should ensure it does not suffer unnecessarily, separated from the fact I might kill it. If i kill it I should not waste it.
E.g. I like pigs, I could see having one as a pet, they are intelligent, responsive animals. I eat pigs, I butcher them on my kitchen table. I want the pigs I eat to had lived well and not suffered.
Bees, The more I research, the more I find bees are not simple automata. The more I am with bees the more I learn they have depth in their behaviour. After seeing a bee on my wrist then react to the movement and then still obviously relax, I find I must extend the same treatment to bees as all livestock. It may have six legs but it is (especially as colony) a sophisticated being, it deserves the respect of being treated as such.
I need to to be able to look the the animals/insects in my care the eye if I kill them, and then be able to look at myself in the mirror and say I did well by them.

Very nicely put...... and a fit end to this topic!

 

[chycarne]

Storm, i understand and am ok with around 2/3 of your reply, however i dont understand the last bit, i was commenting, as have others, what has the religion bit and discussion, got to do with either the question or beekeeping. in my earlier post i suggested that as my belief and along with what i define as sentience - reacts to something in its envirionment and moves towards or away, keepig it in an environment it chooses to move away from is cruel. morals may well come into it but doing something that something else doesnt like for no good reason other than your own "interest" (entertaiment) would be wrong and probably cruel- the same as if i didnt like the posts i wouldnt bother reading them yours i didnt like but have responded to as i am puzzled... perhaps i am being thick or something - are you trying to tell me something perhaps?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

This is an interesting argument.
No doubt religion plays an active part in many people's attitude and practices towards animals (halal slaughter for example), but I think it is often culture rather than religion that determines exactly how we treat our animals.
The UK and France are both nominally Christian countries, but it could easily be argued that we have very different approaches to animal husbandry and welfare.
The moral code delivered by religion is always open to interpretation, that's just human beings for you.

 

[Headnavigator]

Which leads me nicely onto - Christianity - the religion which does not trust in the literal meaning of the good book, but which feels the need to put a modern spin on its stories and how they relate to the parishioners/local communities circumstance via a bloke in a frock telling them "what I think this means is.......fill in the blank". A man. A man in a frock giving his interpretation of what a story means in modern times. THE WORD OF GOD - not good enough - has to be rehashed for a modern audience by a lowly man. Hmmmmm is that faith, blind faith or pyramid selling with no Tupperware.... and faith in THAT one MAN being right. Thats more than faith thats delusion.

In many respects I agree with what you are saying here, but sadly if we were to take the Bible literally (as I for one was brought up to do) we could find ourselves in much deeper doo-doo than listening to a deluded dude in a frock. Most monotheistic religions simply do not work on any kind of a rational or symbolic basis.

 

[Skyhook]

In many respects I agree with what you are saying here, but sadly if we were to take the Bible literally (as I for one was brought up to do) we could find ourselves in much deeper doo-doo than listening to a deluded dude in a frock. Most monotheistic religions simply do not work on any kind of a rational or symbolic basis.

My I recommend this book? quite an eye-opener. http://www.ajjacobs.com/books/yolb.asp

 

[Phil280]

Hi there.

Interesting turn this topic has taken. But however interesting the religious side of things may be from a philosophical point of view...from a practical point of view it makes no difference at all. As an agnostic - borderline atheist - I get a bit grumpy when religion is used as an excuse for immoral actions a human being that has a brain AND uses it takes. But im my personal opinion - without wanting to offend anyone - in the modern times we live in, "religion" and "using your brain" are a contradiction.
But that is my view...and anyone can believe in any fairytale they want as long as they do not try and force it upon me.

Back on topic:
I think we are trying to define to many things that are beside the point.
Defining pain has nothing to do with cruelty...it can merely be part of an act of cruelty.
Pain and cruelty are two separate things. Many torture techniques are not linked to pain in any way but are extremely cruel.

In my eyes cruelty is defined by any form of negative stimulus that is applied to a group or individual that is unnecessary and can be avoided!

Regarding the possibility of being able to "feel" pain I see it as BCrazy. A life form has mechanisms that enable it to register and react to negative actions. That is a basic means of survival. If a stimulus is registered as unpleasant/life threatening, the life form will try and get away from that stimulus. Therefore it can differentiate between "good" and "bad".

Another thing that has to be said regarding Arthropoda being a primitive form of life compared to humans: Our brain and its function give us a clear advantage over many things BUT the Arthropoda are the most complex, sophisticated and adaptable Phylum out there. They have senses we are not even able to understand. We just know they are there because we have found the microstructures. In many ways the Arthropoda are superior in comparison with any mammal on this planet and they will outlive us tenfold.
Now you tell me who has the better Bauplan for survival and is superior.

Can one be cruel to bees?
Yes!

If a beekeeper sticks to the basic rules of beekeeping and has respect for all the life forms out there, he will not be cruel to his/her bees.
Beekeepers in most cases do not force the bees to stay in the hive. They supply a more or less ideal place for bees to live - which is why swarms will often just move in to a fresh empty hive.
Yes, we steal some of their winter supplies. BUT if you are a respectful beekeeper and work well, your bees will have been able to build up stores that would feed them for two winters and you can take your share and if needs be replace some of the honey with feed.
Personally I never take all the honey and then feed. Greed is the first step to doom.

Treating against the Varroa mite may in many cases be cruel. Until other effective methods of treatment are found that are less harmful to bees, I am afraid in our parts of the world, this is one of the only ways to keep colonies alive at the moment. We just need to keep the treatment with these substances to a minimum.

Greets
Phil

@Bcrazy: I think it is one heart with 5 ventriculi with valves and the lateral ostia also with valves. I will see what I can find regarding accessory hearts in bees.

 

[prana vallabha]

i think all living entities have the same rights from ant to human being as we are all the same spirit soul ...