Insulation in hives

[sherwood]

Had an interesting presentation last week from Derek Mitchell on insulation. The basis was that we should consider bees in there natural home ie a hole in a tree. He then established the coefficient of the heat loss through an average thickness of a tree if there is such a thing exists and calculated that as bees did not cluster until the temperture dipped to 10 degrees C that it was highly likely that they could survive through the winter without clustering. It also seems that the tempertures maintained within such a colony was not conducive to varoa propagation. He introduced tables of heat loss for various types of wood and polystetrene and none were even close to a tree. He suggested and indicated through research that hives insulated or even formed from insulation boards such as Kingspan gave much inprooved performances even during the summer. Highly enlightening

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And you've been on this forum how long?......

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[pargyle]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/search.php?searchid=3863060

 

[sherwood]

And you've been on this forum how long?..



looks like longer than you but perhaps I have other things to do other than sit and post inane reples

 

[sherwood]

sorry that link doesnt seem to work

 

[pargyle]

sorry that link doesnt seem to work

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Look up DerekM on the members list ... he's a very regular contributor on here - lots of interesting posts - many of them linked to what you heard in his lecture.

 

[viridens]

It's one thing to be on the forum, another to take the time to read it all, and yet another to sort the wheat and pearls of wisdom from the chaff and the bickering

 

[pargyle]

It's one thing to be on the forum, another to take the time to read it all, and yet another to sort the wheat from the chaff and the bickering

If you dip in for a few minutes on a daily basis it tends to make more sense and you soon get to recognise what is worth reading and skip the rest ....

 

[user 6228]

Had an interesting presentation last week from Derek Mitchell on insulation. The basis was that we should consider bees in there natural home ie a hole in a tree. He then established the coefficient of the heat loss through an average thickness of a tree if there is such a thing exists and calculated that as bees did not cluster until the temperture dipped to 10 degrees C that it was highly likely that they could survive through the winter without clustering. It also seems that the tempertures maintained within such a colony was not conducive to varoa propagation. He introduced tables of heat loss for various types of wood and polystetrene and none were even close to a tree. He suggested and indicated through research that hives insulated or even formed from insulation boards such as Kingspan gave much inprooved performances even during the summer. Highly enlightening

To clarify:
in the lecture I established that bees are not forced by outside temperature to cluster at high MCR. At high MCR, we have observed that they do indeed cluster but not solely because its cold outside( same colony out of cluster at -13C, in cluster at +8C ). In fact in the Canadian cold overwintering barns they have to keep the bees dark to stop them flying.
This proved is that the winter cluster is not all about temperature and that the behaviour dependencies on other factors should be investigated. The research showed that bees are quite capable of surviving almost anywhere on this planet there is a suitable tree and enough nectar and pollen bearing flowers.

 

[oliver90owner]

And you've been on this forum how long?......-

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than sit and post inane reples

Reading and learning over a period of 7 1/2 years (without even posting) should have come across these arguments several times - more than sufficient to get the message for any keen beekeeper.

As they say, ''you can lead a horse to water, but ...'' Guessing here we have a 'matchstick man' still operating who still uses fluvallinates every year and possibly has never read of an OMF (let alone a plastic hive).

Oh, and the Derek Mitchell who delivered that presentation is not remotely related to DerekM on the forum....or is he? Not possible they are one and the same - or it would have been noticed over so many years? 'Nuff said.

 

[ugcheleuce]

The basis was that we should consider bees in there natural home i.e. a hole in a tree.

It's always good to know what the basis of consideration is, because the basis might be flawed. There is this superstition, for example, that a hole in a tree is the natural home of bees. Studies on feral bee colonies show, however, that only a small percentage of colonies end up in tree holes. One study, for example, found:

Of the first 122 colonies we located on Santa Cruz Island ... cliff holes, rock crevices, and rock overhangs sheltered 33, 30, and 13 of them, respectively (62%). Six were found in cavities in clay banks, and 19 were found in cavities under the tree boles of scrub oak and island cherry. Only 17 colonies (14%) were located in what could be considered bee trees, even though we have seen dozens of large oaks with apparently suitable cavities on the island.

He then established the coefficient of the heat loss through an average thickness of a tree, if there is such a thing exists, and...

And what was this average thickness?

 

[user 6228]

An Island just off the coast of los Angeles is hardly a challenging or typical environment for North European honeybees. Can you give a list of references for these "studies"
After reading a few thousand papers I can say that not all studies or conclusions are equal. The devil is in the detail. N European honeybees thrive in tree nests and there are many areas of their post glacial colonisation that they could only reach using tree nests. Even if you can assert honeybees utilise holes in rocks you still need to account for how well they do in trees. It is clear that they are not so specialised that without a tree nest in all environments they will always perish, but one south california island does not make a study that you can extrapolate to the world.

 

[user 6228]

It's always good to know what the basis of consideration is, because the basis might be flawed. There is this superstition, for example, that a hole in a tree is the natural home of bees. Studies on feral bee colonies show, however, that only a small percentage of colonies end up in tree holes. One study, for example, found:

Of the first 122 colonies we located on Santa Cruz Island ... cliff holes, rock crevices, and rock overhangs sheltered 33, 30, and 13 of them, respectively (62%). Six were found in cavities in clay banks, and 19 were found in cavities under the tree boles of scrub oak and island cherry. Only 17 colonies (14%) were located in what could be considered bee trees, even though we have seen dozens of large oaks with apparently suitable cavities on the island.



And what was this average thickness?

Seeley, T. D., & Morse, R. A. (1976). The nest of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.). Insectes Sociaux, 23(4), 495–512. http://doi.org/10.1007/BF02223477

Gambino, P., Hoelmer, K and Daly, H. V. (1990). Nest sites of feral honey bees Nests in Trees. Apidologie, 21(1), 35–45. http://doi.org/10.1051/apido:19900105

around 150mm you will need to dig deep and make inferences as entomologists dont usually consider heat transfer through structures as being sufficiently relevant to include details directly

 

[pargyle]

just off the coast of los Angeles is hardly a challenging environment for honeybees.

In addition ... the honey bee was introduced into the USA by European settlers in the early 1600's - so the colonies were already managed - perhaps they were already more used to living in structures other than hollow trees when the colonies mentioned in Sam's report were surveyed. Not the best evidence I'm afraid ... Bees are opportunists they will live in any suitable environment they find attractive - preferably on the junction of two ley lines !

 

[Finman]

.
Cruz Islands needs polyhives, which protects the nest against heat.

So it works when Paradise Honey boxes are sold in Australia.

But no one can nurse bees in hollow trunks.

They were straw hives what they used.

Bees can make a hive where ever but it is not beekeeping. It is toykeeping. Varroa will kill those tota, but swarm will fill the cavity next spring.
.
We have here now -10C to -5 C and bad wind.

Jenkins can be now proud. He has really much more decrees than me. And Hivemaker propably has more.
.

 

[Finman]

In addition ... the honey bee was introduced into the USA by European settlers in the early 1600's - so the colonies were already managed - perhaps they were already more used to living in structures other than hollow trees when the colonies mentioned in Sam's report were surveyed. Not the best evidence I'm afraid ... Bees are opportunists they will live in any suitable environment they find attractive - preferably on the junction of two ley lines !

First colonies were imported from Estonia to Finland 250 years ago. They all died. IT took quite much time to learn how to manage them over winter. 200 y ago it was documented that there were at least 100 hives. No frames then. They were imported from Sweden.

If you read about Alaska, University of Fairbanks recommends to kill bees when crop is harvested.. And a specialist of Alaska tells that you must feed to hives 50 kg Sugar. On average we use 20 kg/hive

After all wintering is not easy, if you have wrong habits

Ley Lines are on Finland too. Poly isolates bees from Ley radiation.
.
..

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

looks like longer than you but

............. obviously you have taken little or no heed of a regular poster with a wealth of information on insulation and choose instead to gleefully start a thread announcing you've reinvented the wheel!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In addition ... the honey bee was introduced into the USA by European settlers in the early 1600's

First colonies were imported from Estonia to Finland 250 years ago.
..

So in what part of America is the state of Finland? and what side were they on during the civil war?

Must be a good batch this year again.

 

[Finman]

So in what part of America is the state of Finland? and what side were they on during the civil war?

Must be a good batch this year again.

State of Finland was part of Russia then.
You know Russia, that Putin Land?

We were not involved in ***** business like the British.
.

 

[pargyle]

So in what part of America is the state of Finland? and what side were they on during the civil war?

Must be a good batch this year again.

You are very naughty ... and completely wrong ...

Finland, Minnesota ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland,_Minnesota

Famed for it's production of 120% proof Vodka - Lots of people go there to try it but are usually unable to remember who they are let alone where they have been ....